General Chat / Free Will Discussion

Me, and a rather intellectual friend of mine have recently been holding a series of debates regarding the issue of "free will," as we define it as humans.

Dictionary.com defines free will as follows:

free will
n.

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

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I am going to attempt to prove that we do not have free will as we believe we do. (If you don't believe that already.)

We have choices in our every day life. You have the choice to stand up or sit down, to walk and get a soda or stay in your chair. You have the choice between spaghetti and lasagne at an italian restaurant. You have all these choices every day, and you get to make those choices, and you feel that those things stem from free will.

"All of the data from the past can be used to construct our future." - Me.

Lets say, that I am faced with the opportunity to eat either spaghetti or lasagne at an italian restaurant. Follow me here.

I choose lasagne.
-because i like it.
-because my mother made me try it.
-because my mother always cooked lasagne, and she made good lasagne.
-because my mother always made good lasagne because she was taught to make good lasagne from my grandmother.
-because my grandmother and my grandfather had my mother.
-because my grandmother and grandather existed.
(skips back in time)
-because the human race evolved over millions of years.
-because life was formed on this planet.
-because this planet lays in a suitable environment to support life.
-because of our sun's location and because of our sun's unique planet configuration.
-because of the way the milky way galaxy is formed.
-because of the way the universe is formed.
-because the universe started in the only possible one way it could, (which remains uncertain) which would produce an earth, milky way, and every other criteria necessary for this exact timeline to occur.

In essence, every action or choice you make is based upon a reason. That reason lays in the past. You may be doing it to earn a rewad, or consequence, in the future, but the reason you're doing it lays in the past. You know why you're doing it because of all the things you know, because you learned those things. Every single action or choice can be traced back into history until the beginning of time. So, if I choose lasagne, and I turn back time, and make the same choice again, I will always choose Lasagne. Because the criteria for me to choose lasagne has been met before I ever walk in the resturaunt, that criteria was set before I was ever born, in fact, I believe that that criteria was set the very instant that the universe became the universe. I'm not saying the universe was sitting there thinking.. "Well, in 5 billion years or so, Chris is going to choose lasagne over spaghetti," but I am saying that there is only one timeline, and at that moment every criteria for that to happen had already been met. Simply because I chose lasagne, means that me choosing lasagne is the only way the universe ever could have been. There's only one timeline here at work, and it is the history of the universe and everything in it. Everything depend's on "it's" past. Everything. You replying to this topic, because you agree or disagree, because... because... because...because the universe exists. Its all going to happen the same way because there can only be one timeline. The future is going to happen and nothing can change the way it will be. If you are going to change some sort of life, some sort of world, some sort of nation, you are changing it for a reason, and that reason can be traced back, and back, and back. It's almost as if it were destined to happen, and you are just fulfilling it, but nobody knows that destiny, it's just... there. We fulfill it in every single thing we do. It's not kept on a record anywhere, it's just the one future the universe has and it's only going to happen ONE WAY.

If you disagree, arguing with me is a waste of time unless you're actually educated on the subject. I don't want Christian Fundamentalists flying at me with their fallacies. I don't want 12 year olds telling me they have free will because they can do whatever they want. If you disagree, I would hope you understand what the word argument really means.

you could always get the spaghetti...

I think I'm gonna smoke tonight and come back then.

i didnt actually finish reading all of it, but i read about half. it sounds to me like youre saying that every decision that has ever been made was because the universe was created. in that case, it doesnt matter wheather you get the lasgna or not, cuz no matter what you choose, its because the universe evolved........your mom cooked. so im gonna have to disagree with you.

While you have a good theory and quite a quaralation, I don't really think you can applie this to all things of the human persona.
Take for instance something that is completly new like the computer, you don't like the computer because your parents made you like it, you like it because you found it yourself and have come to enjoy it.

That doesn't have any connections with the past, sure the computer came to being because the Earth was a sutible place to live, but I think you're taking that connection a bit far.

So basically what I am saying is that we [i]do[i] have free will to a certain extent, but yes, you could trace many things back to the begining of time, but whats the point?

Because if you do want to yeat that spahgettie, I'm pretty sure you're not going to.

Although astrology is bullshit, the behavioristic approach is a good one(the best of them all). Still, it's always good to take an eclectic approach. I believe that we have free will, only that our choices are shaped by our past experiences in life. We do still have free will. Only that we make choices that are heavily influenced. That doesn't exactly change the fact that we have free will. Only that it's not so "free." Anyway, I still believe that humans are born with free will, but this obviously changes over time.

Anyway.

The idea you have has been used for a while now. It's old news, buddy.

All I see is proof of cause and effect and set up the case for fate. I see chosing lasagne as more of an educated choice. You know that you enjoy lasagne more than spaghetti and as a desire to satisfy yourself you chose lasagne. I'd say people chose based on what benefits themselves the most. You scenario only seems to work if a person has previous knowledge. What if one is faced with a choice in which he is completely ignorant of the subjects? If he is ignorant he has no previous experience or knowledge and thus cannot be effected by the past except that certain things have happened to make this point of decision making come to pass but came still be completly irrelavant.

Oh yeah, you also have free will because the Bible says so and the Bible is right because it says so.

If he is ignorant he has no previous experience or knowledge and thus cannot be effected by the past except that certain things have happened to make this point of decision making come to pass but came still be completly irrelavant.

I like when you say "thus." It makes you sound smart. Also, when you say "he."

Anyway, give me an example of this.

Anyway, I still believe that humans are born with free will, but this obviously changes over time.

...Is the instinct of survival free will...?

...when you are born the doctor slaps you on your ass and you take your first breath...is that free will...?...your mind is programmed to survive...evolution...if you don't take that first breath after your ass slap, then free will doesn't matter...free will
depends on the doctor...think about it...

...free will...?...if you enjoy it, do it...within reason...I don't know...
who cares...life is short, when your old...



...oh wait...what was the mix...a few beers...a couple of mary jane's...a hit of LSD...and the stars...wow...man...i can dig it...

Some of you guys aren't quite grasping it, because you don't really understand the ramifications of "everything," and "back to the beginning of time." Some of you don't appear to understand that if you order the spaghetti, because you want the spaghetti, it's the same damn thing. It doesn't matter what you order or what you ever do, it's all pre-determined.

you could always get the spaghetti...

You keep on telling yourself that, Blitz....

Come on, what the fuck kind of answer is that?? Seriously?? I can't believe I'm replying to that. If you get the spaghetti, it's because the conditions of the history of time are arranged so that you will. It doesn't matter what you choose.

i didnt actually finish reading all of it, but i read about half. it sounds to me like youre saying that every decision that has ever been made was because the universe was created. in that case, it doesnt matter wheather you get the lasgna or not, cuz no matter what you choose, its because the universe evolved........your mom cooked. so im gonna have to disagree with you.

This is quite possibly one of the most blatantly aloof answers I've ever heard. You're out there in left field. What are your reasons, again??? You say "let me get this straight - you're wrong." That's rediculous. Why didn't you read the whole thing? Too much work?

If he is ignorant he has no previous experience or knowledge and thus cannot be effected by the past except that certain things have happened to make this point of decision making come to pass but came still be completly irrelavant.

Now that is a completely ignorant statement. You are saying that if you dont know that something effected your decision, then it doesnt effect the decision. I can't believe you said that. Imagine, you choose the spaghetti, because you're in the mood for spaghetti. You wouldn't have the opportunity to make that choice unless your parents had produced you. That may not factor into YOUR decision, but it factors into THE decision. Get it?

Anyway, give me an example of this.

If one is at an Italian restaurant but has never had Italian food and doesn't ask others their opinions on the food.

If one is at an Italian restaurant but has never had Italian food and doesn't ask others their opinions on the food.

You're missing the point, try again.

Anyway, I still believe that humans are born with free will, but this obviously changes over time.

...Is the instinct of survival free will...?

...when you are born the doctor slaps you on your ass and you take your first breath...is that free will...?...your mind is programmed to survive...evolution...if you don't take that first breath after your ass slap, then free will doesn't matter...free will
depends on the doctor...think about it...

...free will...?...if you enjoy it, do it...within reason...I don't know...
who cares...life is short, when your old...

...oh wait...what was the mix...a few beers...a couple of mary jane's...a hit of LSD...and the stars...wow...man...i can dig it...

You're an idiot. I obivously wasn't talking about natural instincts.

Anyway. Am I missing the point. It seems pretty simple to me.

You're an idiot. I obivously wasn't talking about natural instincts.

...sure you were...birth is a natural instinct...not free will...

...as for lasagna...do you eat it at your own free will or do
you eat it to survive...?

...Is the instinct of survival free will...?




...this topic is a mind bender...lots of questions and answers...

You're fucking weird

Is the instinct of survival free will...?

I was going to post this, but I didn't know how to put it into words. Anyway, it's an excellent question and I'm intrigued by people's responses to it.

You're fucking weird

...and a fuckin' freak...Thanks...good times...

SA, I both partially agree and partially disagree with your argument. For one, I think you're on to something about past events affecting choice. The history of choice could be viewed as a tree. Each person's choice or will in one area being only a branch of their past experiences, which in turn are the way they are because of another person's choice or will. We may all very well be connected to the nature of the universe itself through a tree of cause and effect. The connections for a given person, the "branches," could be conscious or subconscious, but they may still be there. However, I look at this vast tree a bit differently than you do. I think that it is the result of a balance between people's free will and past experiences, both of which simultaneously affect a person's choice. I believe that they work in unison and in harmony, both playing a part in determining what choice a person will make.

  Is the instinct of survival free will...?

I was going to post this, but I didn't know how to put it into words. Anyway, it's an excellent question and I'm intrigued by people's responses to it.

Read Jack London's short story, "To Build a Fire."

SA... my reply is all that is needed. I understood your post and what you were implying, but...

It really doesn't matter. If you want to think of it this way: fate is the ends, free will is the means. If everything has a predetermined path, then even the most blind guessing is in accordance with that path. Whatever we "choose", becomes the path. That's what my post meant.

That is why you could always get spaghetti. You aren't picking it in spite of the path, you are simply claiming the path itself; verifying your existence.

So I'll say it again...

You could always get the spaghetti...