General Chat / San Francisco Allows Gay Marriages

Exactly.

Foreigners view America as the land of the free generally, if one would take care to read some autobiographies of foreign-raised persons.

Thus also being a reason for us to marry.

What if your views on everything is wrong? What if EVERYONES views on everything is wrong? That would be really screwed up.

What if your views are wrong? mmm. bummer.

Ah!!! When did this become chaos? Most of you didn't even read my posts did you? You're still arguing the same points that have been argued against. Why dont you address the intelligent responses instead of ignoring the issue? aero21, do you have anything else to say? You were at least stating your opinion intelligently.

And John, I don't think you need to push it that far. I don't know a lot of gay people, but I am friends with a few and they are certainly not fans of Christianity. The issue is still over civil rights, not religious doctrine. If the church defines marriage they get to define it how they want. If the state is going to recognize marriage as a social institution, it needs to recognize it for everyone equally. So let's call it a civil union for tax documents, hospital visits, and whatever else and let those people who are Christians continue to use the term marriage how they want to use it for religious custom.

Somewhere way back there I was quoted about the gas chamber comment. The only thing I meant by that is that in a constitutional democracy, limits are in place to ensure that everyone has the same rights regardless of what the public opinion is. Once African Americans were considered people, they were given equal rights. Once women were considered just as capable as men, they were given equal rights. Why is this still an issue regarding homosexuals? Does anyone think they aren't people and therefore don't deserve equal rights? If not than the constitution is pretty clear on the issue.

but to my like Butterfinger said, marriage has always been passed down since the dawn of time as marriage between man and woman, the correlation of the two opposite sexes to have an everlasting relationship and family, just because NOW the homosexual community decides they want to change eons of religion and history to suite their first generation lives is wrong. Because you open a pandora's box for the next generation to believe this is something of ok, nad therefore weakening religions moral and strength. Can you help it that 90 plus percent of the world beleives in a major religion and are against this.

Get some historical perspective. Marriage ain't what it used to be. The homosexual generation is not changing eons of history. There is no homosexual generation. Homosexuals have always existed. Read some Greek literature or something. It's there. 50 years ago people were put in jail for being alleged communists. Human history is a fucking travesty of human rights. Can you be that ignorant? Just look at the state of marriage in America today. How many married couples never have children? How many get divorced within 5 years? Is it really that horrible to allow two people who love each other and want to live together for the rest of their lives to get married? It would be an improvement I'd say. And like I said before, if 90% of the world wanted to kill all the gays, that would not make it right. Majority opinion does not negate basic liberties.

Is it really all that much to ask for people to question what is being taught to them? Remember how Columbus was the first to discover America. Oh wait, what about the Vikings? Remember how everyone believed the world was flat before Columbus? Oh wait, the Greeks wrote thousands of years earlier that the Earth is a sphere. Remember how the pioneer spirit and ingenuity expanded the United States to what it is today? Oh wait, they butchered natives and stole their land. What people teach you is not always the truth. What you know in your heart to be true may in fact be false. It's great to believe in things. But believe in them for the right reasons. Because you were taught something is not the right reason. You have to analyze everything you are taught and decide whether or not you should believe it.

Here's a thought experiment for you. I invent a time machine and travel back to 500 AD. I get my hands on every copy of the Bible and I add a line saying "and the man shall take the surname of his wife". 2000 years later, husbands would be taking their wives last names and would never think of doing the opposite. There are a lot more volatile examples I can use, but the point is that all history, written or spoken, is unreliable. All customs change over periods of time. If you want to believe the Bible, that is totally your choice. But if you tell me homosexuality is evil because the Bible said so I'm going to say that is totally illogical. When you decide to believe something, you take full responsibility for it. Yeah it's easier to follow a predetermined doctrine than it is to think for yourself. And it's worked for so many people, it must be good right? So if you believe homosexuality is evil, than you have to back it up with a better reason than "the Bible says so". Tell me why they should be condemned. Tell me why they don't deserve the same rights as hetereosexuals. Come on, admit it's just because you're disgusted by it. And do you know what that is? That's your culture telling you what to believe. If you were Hindu you would think eating a hamburger is disgusting.

Whoever mentioned soddam and gommorah, you do realize that the term 'soddomy' is derived from that reference? That's totally absurd to use that as an example.

Hmmm....think I'll chime in here as I have been faithfully, and monagamously with the same man for 12 years. Aero, I am disheartened by your comments. You certainly have a right to your faith. In fact, I feel sorry for those that do not have faith. However, this is about CIVIL equality. Let me put it this way. Right now, I am in New York. My husband Chris is in Oklahoma City. We are both on business promoting GemQuest (which after today, you will be able to find VERY soon at Toys R Us.com)

If something were to happen to EITHER of us, NEITHER of us would have ANY recourse in being able to do anything to help the other, i.e. hopsital visitiation, medical decisions, etc. I only want the EXACT same CIVIL liberties that you have Aero. How would you feel if your wife or god forbid your child got hurt, and you were unable to do anything or have ANY input into the care or treatment or the people you loved most.

Now for the financial. Chris and I make a LOT of money. That translates to....we pay a LOT of taxes. I would venture Aero, that if your kid is in public school, I AM PAYING FOR IT!!!


It is ludicrous for me to pay this much in taxes and be denied the (get ready for the EXACT count kids) 1279 federal rights and responsibilities that you honestly take for granted. You married your wife because you love her. I married my husband because I love him. Nothing that anyone says or does will change EITHER of those situations. HOWEVER, you are currently protected FISCALLY and CIVILLY in 1279 ways that I AM NOT!!!!


And please don't condescend to me with the "you can change" bullshit. Being gay is not a choice. If you truly think it is, then I would like to know at what age did you DECIDE to become a heterosexual.......

OK, rant over.

Going to bed.

As they say in New York.

thank god for meretrix and ed.
seriously, some of you people just swept right by ed's posts.
he is right about people attacking only the weaker points in some feeble attempt to deny the whole argument he presented. The very fact of that you ignored him is proof that he is right, and that you are scraping the bowl.

Andrew:
The complete seperation of church and state is needed because everyone is NOT of one religion, but we are ALL human, and thus we all deserve basic natural rights. Therefore, a government that works in the best interest of the people would not defer to any religious faction, but to basic principles of natural rights. Which, oddly enough, were very much cited by the framers from a philosopher that was big on the whole "natural rights" spiel at the time our country came into being.

I'm thankful that Meretrix finally joined this discussion. I know I feel very strongly about the issue, but do not have all the facts regarding what rights gay people are being denied. It's fantastic to have someone on these boards that understands all to well the depth of the discrimination and is articulate and well spoken enough to present these facts. I agree with Blitz that the arguments against gay marriage tend to speak only to the points that are arguable, but not to the whole issue. I agree with Ed that the opposition to gay marriage is more out of a knee jerk reaction to the idea of gay sex than it is to the actual issue of equality, rights and priveleges afforded to your fellow human beings. Ed's arguments are very complete and help clarify exactly what the issues should be. I strongly suggest everyone read them and if you must oppose them, attempt to reconcile all the issues discussed. At least that will get your brain working on a level higher than...'It's the end of morality in our society'.

Whoever mentioned soddam and gommorah, you do realize that the term 'soddomy' is derived from that reference? That's totally absurd to use that as an example.

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S&G is a hilarious story.
I thought it was one of the more interesting stories in the Bible.

Believe it or not the Bible is a very well written and fast paced novel!
Like Harry Potter.

Oh, and Meretrix, you SO can change, jeeze what were you thinking!
Sorry if you guys think I am totaly demeaning your conversation here, but I wanted to comment on a few posts and give this thing a bit of a lighter tone. Face it, you guys (Toon, Meretrix, etc the people for gay marriage, Im one of them) won't be able to change the minds of the ignorant and dull-minded dolts that so firmly are against. Most people don't even have a solid case.

Anyways commence with LES ARGURMENTS!!!!!

BTW, Meretrix where do you live in S.F., I used to live in Marin up untill three years ago, great place, Coaster Ed is from Larkspur.
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meretrix, great post. A lot of times people just make an ideological statement like this will be the end of morals and forget that this issue actually affects real people.

If you want to believe the Bible, that is totally your choice. But if you tell me homosexuality is evil because the Bible said so I'm going to say that is totally illogical. When you decide to believe something, you take full responsibility for it. Yeah it's easier to follow a predetermined doctrine than it is to think for yourself. And it's worked for so many people, it must be good right? So if you believe homosexuality is evil, than you have to back it up with a better reason than "the Bible says so". Tell me why they should be condemned. Tell me why they don't deserve the same rights as hetereosexuals. Come on, admit it's just because you're disgusted by it. And do you know what that is? That's your culture telling you what to believe. If you were Hindu you would think eating a hamburger is disgusting.

I completely agree. And I think I said something similiar to that before...
But my words have ways of not being percieved as I like.
I'm sorry for derailing the discussion into religion, that wasn't my intention.
Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled madness of NE...

Just a question for meretrix...if as was suggested, civil unions be given the same rights as those of marriages, would you be willing to accept that?

thank god for meretrix and ed.
seriously, some of you people just swept right by ed's posts.
he is right about people attacking only the weaker points in some feeble attempt to deny the whole argument he presented.  The very fact of that you ignored him is proof that he is right, and that you are scraping the bowl.

Andrew:
The complete seperation of church and state is needed because everyone is NOT of one religion, but we are ALL human, and thus we all deserve basic natural rights.  Therefore, a government that works in the best interest of the people would not defer to any religious faction, but to basic principles of natural rights.  Which, oddly enough, were very much cited by the framers from a philosopher that was big on the whole "natural rights" spiel at the time our country came into being.

I agree, and i think you misunderstood my point about the seperation of church and state.
By "church" I did not mean one religion specifically, but the collective beliefs of the people.

To effectively govern a country you need to know the people you are governing in-depth. You need to understand them and their qualities, and religion is one of the most influencial qualities a person can have. SO to know the people, you have to know their religions.

I don't think the church should have any legal sway in the government (especially since they don't pay taxes), but I do think that a government that completely ignores the various religions people practice is doomed to failure.

But thats on a side note, I do think gays should be given the right to legal marriage, given the same human rights as everyone else, and I think that is Catholicism in gerenal pulled its head out of it's Medieval ass then it would feel the same way, God loves everyone, they don't seem to be getting that.

I'll just make my point fast as not to upset anyone.

Sodomy is a sin. It is firmly stated in the Bible. The cities of Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed because of homosexual relations. I guess people don't learn from past mistakes because San Francisco just became a modern day Sodom or Gomorah.

I'm not a deeply religious or anything, but the some members of my family are so I know many Bible stories. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Christian, but I don't "practice" I guess.

Now my personal feelings about this: I personally find gay actions of any kind disgusting. That's just me. So of course I think this amendment from Bush should pass. I'm fine with gays like those portrayed on "Will & Grace" (great show!), but I do not want to see gay people married or making out on television. MTV and some of those dating shows have already gone too far with gay stuff on tv.

Yes, God does love everyone. Even those that sin. And sodomy is a sin. Isn't this a nation under God? Shouldn't our laws reflect those of His? If these marriages do go through....

"I'll be packing my bags for the Misty Mountain...."

I'll just make my point fast as not to upset anyone.

Sodomy is a sin. It is firmly stated in the Bible. The cities of Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed because of homosexual relations. I guess people don't learn from past mistakes because San Francisco just became a modern day Sodom or Gomorah.

I'm not a deeply religious or anything, but the some members of my family are so I know many Bible stories.

Now my personal feelings about this: I personally find gay actions of any kind disgusting. That's just me. So of course I think this amendment from Bush should pass. I'm fine with gays like those portrayed on "Will & Grace" (great show!), but I do not want to see gay people married or making out on television. MTV and some of those dating shows have already gone too far with gay stuff on tv.

If I may quote a line from the movie Lawrence of Arabia,

"You're an ignorant man."

Do you have any kind of proof that Soddom and Gomorrah (however they're spelled) were destroyed because of homosexual activities? I'm pretty clear on them being destroyed because of sinful activities but I don't know why that implies homsexuality. Is there something else in there I'm missing? And the term "Soddomy" refers to the city of Soddom in the Bible, that much is true. That "Soddom" always referred to anal sex is not true. The term was defined that way for a reason. Enter cultural bias. Everything else you said is also cultural bias, so there's no point trying to persuade you further. The fact that you think Will & Grace is a great show but think the prospect of two men kissing on television is disgusting shows me that you are simply buying into everything popular culture feeds you. I bet you loved that Britney Madonna kiss didn't you? And you probably think Janet Jackson was wrong to show one of her breats on network television but if she simply danced around in a bikini, that would be not only acceptable but great entertainment. Why don't you go win a Darwin award or something. Jeez, you want to talk about the morals of this country going down the drain? This is why right here. Turn off your fucking TV and start thinking for yourself.

Oh, I'm ignorant? For stating my opinion? Or am I ignorant because I have the opposite view of your opinion? Very mature, Ed. I didn't bash anyone's opinion. I merely stated my own.

My values were planted in me young, mostly by my grandmother and mother. They read me Bible stories and such with strong moral views that made me who I am. So TV has nothing to do with my opinion and I'm obviously thinking for myself.

Your last paragraph doesn't sound like you.

I have proof on Sodom being destroyed because of Sodomy and so do you. Read the story and see for yourself. The two homosexuals wishing to make love to an angel is one example. The gathered townspeople outside wishing to do the same is another.

I rarely watch TV so my opinion couldn't be affected by it that much. I said I liked Will & Grace, yes, but I like it b/c of the humor. W&G keeps the gay relations down and the humor up. I like that. And no, I thought that Britney/Madonna kiss was nasty as well. Homosexual refers to both guys and girls.

I did not bash anyone's opinion. So don't bash mine.

You're not ignorant for stating your opinion. It's just everything you say has been said before. And because I've heard it all before I just assumed all of the other stereotypes were true too. I apologize. It was my goal to provoke and it's easy to insult people when you view them as stereotypes rather than people. I'm just tired of people making the same argument over and over again instead of thinking about it first. It's like they sell your opinion in stores or something. When you state on opinion though, you are taking a stand and when you do that you invite counter argument. I'll try to be more respectful though.

The one thing I've been trying to convince people of, and you obviously did not put the time in to read the rest of this discussion before posting your opinion, is that so much of what you think comes from other people. It comes from what your parents told you growing up. It comes from what books you read and which school you went to. It comes from the values important to your society. There's nothing wrong with this. The goal of every society is to enculturate. At one point or another you should make the transition from reciting the beliefs of your culture to thinking for yourself what really is and is not of value. How can you claim to believe in anything if you haven't even looked at the alternatives? Have you read the Koran? Do you understand that people growing up in Middle Eastern countries believe that the Koran is the truth in the same way that you believe in the Bible? They think you're wrong and you think they're wrong. You need to step outside of your culture for a minute if you ever hope to reconcile discrimination. I'm just trying to make people understand this. The Greeks believed that the Odyssey and the Illiad were divinly inspired. They're fictional myths to us, but they were the belief system of their culture. Just like you grew up reading the Bible, some Iranian grew up reading the Koran and now you meet each other. Are you both going to convince the other person of your view? Are you going to kill the other person? Are you going to live in a society where your beleifs are favored and theirs are opressed? Or are you going to make an effort to understand the human condition in a culturally aware manner? This is not liberal anti-establishment propaganda. This is rational thinking. This is progress. Maybe we don't need to kill each other and opress each other.

I see people who follow any religion ONLY because it is the religion of their culture as enemies to the progress of human rights. If you can't understand your place in the world, you'll never be able to understand other people. And when you don't understand other people, you behave in hurtful ways towards them.

You're correct: I didn't read much of this topic before posting. I've haven't been online in about a week so I didn't get a chance to post early on.

How is my being raised differently a negative thing? You talk about me stepping outside of my culture. Have you stepped out of yours? You keep speaking of my culture shaping my opinion. That is true, it has done so, but you have to remember that your culture also shaped your opinion. I had a very frightning experience with a homosexual when I was younger (No, I wasn't raped or anything sexual). I think this may have shaped my opinion the most. I know one man's actions can't speak for all homosexuals, but that event did have a major impact on my opinion.

Just a side note: The Qur'an contains the first five books of the Bible.

Fuck it. I give up.

Sodomy is a sin. It is firmly stated in the Bible. The cities of Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed because of homosexual relations. I guess people don't learn from past mistakes because San Francisco just became a modern day Sodom or Gomorah.

Yes, God does love everyone. Even those that sin. And sodomy is a sin. Isn't this a nation under God? Shouldn't our laws reflect those of His? If these marriages do go through....

"I'll be packing my bags for the Misty Mountain...."

It is also firmly stated in the Bible that God created the Earth in six days. It is also firmly stated in the Bible that Jesus died on the cross, and was resurrected three days later. It is also firmly stated in the Bible that Moses parted the "Red" Sea. Does that make it true? If you take everything without looking at all into what we now know, we'd still be stuck in the Middle Ages. Thank God there were people who looked deeper into what the Bible said and challenged the Church on matters that have helped the religious society evolve. You are being a completely ignorant person if you are not thinking for yourself. You're letting what the Bible says dictate what you personally think. How can you let a several thousand-year-old document judge, by itself, what something is or is not in our society today? I'm not saying that the Bible should be thrown out, it is a great reference point, but as far as basing an argument off of the Bible, it is pretty far-fetched.

There were heavier penalties back then for things deemed sins because the government was a theocratic-based system. So, if the people believed homosexuality was a sin, they would obviously be punished accordingly. Usually by death. Today, however, we have evolved into the society we are, too bad death is still an open punishment. Homosexuality is not against the law, so using the Bible as a basis for comparision between San Francisco and Sodom is completely uncalled for (especially if there is no specific mention of homosexuality) as the situations are entirely different.

A nation under "God" could mean several different things. To Muslims it is Allah; to Jews it is Yahweh; and to Christians it is God. Each of those religions has a separate view on how things would work in our government, and as such a religious outview, especially one only pertaining to a specific group, would only work to destroy our country. Furthermore, there is no proof in either direction that some supernatural power had its hand in the creation of the Bible. Using that as the building block for our laws would be ludicrous.

Gah, here I am babbling about religion again. I'll be damned.
I'm confused myself about all of this, still forming a full opinion.

Sodomy is a sin. It is firmly stated in the Bible. The cities of Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed because of homosexual relations. I guess people don't learn from past mistakes because San Francisco just became a modern day Sodom or Gomorah.

no, it was not. the story of soddom and gomorah has little to do with homosexuality. their sins were many, raging from gluntony, to lust, hate, violence, and mere inhostpitality. they also wanted to rape the messengers of god, which was the last straw that led to the destruction of the cities (should you believe the bible).

and more importantly, you shouldn't believe the bible.

it (or the rather, the old testement and book of revelations) is a mere series of parables, which is incomplete, and which has passed many hands. it is an interpretation of spoken history, that was reinterpreted into numerous languages, before making it's way to 'the kings english'.

how different is 'the kings english' from normal english? heaven = sky. so every reference to heaven in the bible, is a reference to the sky, for one.

so, it isn't even a reliable series of parables.

and, i'm a christian, in case this post might make you feel otherwise. and the central ideas of christianty are the following: peace, love, equality, togetherness. it seems that most of these 'christian' post go squarely against those basic ideals, and it is simply disgusting.

anywho...

why are people so close-minded?