General Chat / San Francisco Allows Gay Marriages

Yes but such strong faith in something is not good. I believe in faith, but when you take faith to the point where you start killing people and fighting over it, it wrecks the whole purpose.

Its not natural. None of this is natural.

Why would it be unnatural? It's all genetical! You really can't choose if your heterosexual or homosexual, because it's all decided in your DNA! And that's completely natural! It's not a disorder or anything!

It's best not to base your arguments on unproven information. It makes it easy for others to discount you. We don't really know how much of any personality trait is genetic or enculturated. It may be learned in early childhood or something. We just don't know. I posted a better argument against the nature issue a couple posts ago. But people will see this and argue this point instead because it's weaker. I see it happen all the time. Selective arguing.

This is really the issue:

the final issue is of course, the rallying call of its original institution, which is: "marriage is between a man and a woman". To which I say, touching on the first point: "If it truly is only that, then have these connections forged by marriage have no weight economically, socially, or especially. If you can't allow this government right to be exercised to all who meet all non-descriminatory pre-requisites, then don't bother extending these rights afforded by marriage to ANYONE AT ALL. If all it really means is just "man and woman" for the sake of you own religious peace of mind, then why should the government give you RIGHTS for it?"

If marriage is to be defined by religion, it should afford no civil privelages. If marriage is a distinction made by government, it should not be tied to one religion. People only listen to this "save the famalies" crap because they can only think of marriage in one way. But the term is being applied in two different ways in that argument. Marriage as a social institution and marriage as a religios custom. Maybe the majority wants to march all the gays into gas chambers and get it over with, but that does not make it right. The constitution is in place to guarantee liberties. And for those of us who believe in liberty, that means equal rights to all at least as far as the law is concerned. Even that won't stop the social injustice, but that will take centuries to correct.

Okay. i believe in God, and that gay marriage should be illegal

Right, and so all Christains are bad and stupid because their religion has caused "wars" (which weren't even wars, btw) (even those "wars" were back in the mideval ages, etc. etc.) while other religions (Muslim) think that if they KILL they go to heaven?

Okay.

Turtleman didn't, as I read it, say anything about specifically Christianity, but about religious fanaticism in general.
And Islam doesn't teach that killing is right.

Right, and so all Christains are bad and stupid because their religion has caused "wars" (which weren't even wars, btw) (even those "wars" were back in the mideval ages, etc. etc.) while other religions (Muslim) think that if they KILL they go to heaven?

Okay.

Well thats just stupid. How do you know that the Christian's view of the whole Jesus/religion thing is all wrong? What if the Muslims are actually right? Its all based on the way you see things and how you are taught different things.

And Turtleman I thought had a very nice point.

there another hearing about this somtime this week. actually 2 cases with 2 judges, so, somthing will happen soo about this

I wasn't talking about Christianity specifically, all religions has it's good and bad points. And I do not think it is right to say other religions are wrong and to say your religion is right. It is not right to judge other religions based on their ideas. For example, many think the greek and roman gods was ridiculous or for the egpytians that the sun was like a god to them. Maybe it is? Who knows. The only way we will ever know life's secrets is when we die, until then I don't mind what other people believe as long as it is not hurting other people's rights and lives. Such as gay marriage.

Good to see you join in Ed. It's always nice to read intelligent comment and discussion. Now if people would stop arguing about the usefulness of religion and whether or not there is a god and get back to the discussion that would be wonderful.

Good to see you join in Ed.  It's always nice to read intelligent comment and discussion.  Now if people would stop arguing about the usefulness of religion and whether or not there is a god and get back to the discussion that would be wonderful.

I see your point in taking it back toon, but there has been some religious discussion, as that is the background. Granted all this talk of religions allowing killing is total bullshit, but the idea of marriage came from religion.

And ed where did you get this

Maybe the majority wants to march all the gays into gas chambers and get it over with, but that does not make it right.

. Is it something you read, or are you just trying to make a point?

Ok guys, I've had enough with some of you tearing down religion.  I'm sick of it, and you're being total hypocrites.  You're now discriminating against Christians and other religions saying how we're all horrible people and how our beliefs contradict each other.  Most of you don't even know what you're talking about.

I'm not Catholic, but I've gone to Catholic school since the 4th grade, and this issue has been brought up again and again.  Let's see, 5 years of mass every Tuesday, and 2 years of mass 1 or 2 times a month, not to mention retreats.  The Catholic Church condemns NO ONE to hell, and when it comes to homosexuals, they do not believe that they will automatically go to hell like you seem to think.  They believe that being one is ok, but acting upon your feelings of homosexuality is a sin.  That being said, they do not say that God hates homosexuals.

Freak, how is disagreeing with Christians discriminating against them? I'm not aiming to strip them of civil liberties or their right to worship, it's merely an opinion on the Catholic Church (not exactly the faith specifically, although I do think it is misled). I hold nothing against people who practice Christianity, the teachings don't make sense to me, so I'm not going to nod my head in agreement like I've done in the past. It's one thing to oppose gay marriages because of your stance with regards to religion, but using it as the basis for a definition of marriage and using that definition to lobby against the other connotation is insane. Though, I think Ed and blitz have said what I've been trying to say in a much more understandable manner.

How does being a homosexual and not acting on your feelings seem logical? I don't understand that at all. How can that not be looked as a contradiction in itself? Now, I don't recall any specific mentioning of homosexuality being wrong in the Bible, but I could be wrong, and if I am, I'd like to look it up. Not to mention the scandals regarding priests' abuse of young boys, perhaps the ultimate of ironies. But let's not get into that, for everyone's sake.

Ok guys, I've had enough with some of you tearing down religion.  I'm sick of it, and you're being total hypocrites.  You're now discriminating against Christians and other religions saying how we're all horrible people and how our beliefs contradict each other.  Most of you don't even know what you're talking about.

I'm not Catholic, but I've gone to Catholic school since the 4th grade, and this issue has been brought up again and again.  Let's see, 5 years of mass every Tuesday, and 2 years of mass 1 or 2 times a month, not to mention retreats.  The Catholic Church condemns NO ONE to hell, and when it comes to homosexuals, they do not believe that they will automatically go to hell like you seem to think.  They believe that being one is ok, but acting upon your feelings of homosexuality is a sin.  That being said, they do not say that God hates homosexuals.

Freak, how is disagreeing with Christians discriminating against them? I'm not aiming to strip them of civil liberties or their right to worship, it's merely an opinion on the Catholic Church (not exactly the faith specifically, although I do think it is misled). I hold nothing against people who practice Christianity, the teachings don't make sense to me, so I'm not going to nod my head in agreement like I've done in the past. It's one thing to oppose gay marriages because of your stance with regards to religion, but using it as the basis for a definition of marriage and using that definition to lobby against the other connotation is insane. Though, I think Ed and blitz have said what I've been trying to say in a much more understandable manner.

How does being a homosexual and not acting on your feelings seem logical? I don't understand that at all. How can that not be looked as a contradiction in itself? Now, I don't recall any specific mentioning of homosexuality being wrong in the Bible, but I could be wrong, and if I am, I'd like to look it up. Not to mention the scandals regarding priests' abuse of young boys, perhaps the ultimate of ironies. But let's not get into that, for everyone's sake.

Ok to answer your question about the bible.
Specific reference is saddam and ghomora. But perhaps you dont understand the teaching itself. Keep in mind this comes from someone who grew up catholic, but is no longer. The church (and i think most christian churches agree<- correct me if im wrong). Beleive that the purpose of marriage/sexual intercourse is for two purposes. One, for the creation of babies, through the actual act. Two is for bonding between the two. So essentially anyone who has sex outside of marriage is sinning, even straight couples.
And also look at it from a physical aspect. We were designed the way we were for a reason.
Agreed on the preist sex scandal, but one comment. Those guys were human, and not perfect. That doesnt negate the teaching.

Thanks, Prove to me that there is a Heaven and Hell and maybe I will start going to church and praying to god.

Thats fine, but you should also understand that there is'nt exactly flat out proof of evolution either. There are tons of flaws in that theory, just as there are plenty of flaws in the Creation theory. Certain facts support both theories, and basicly it all comes down to opinion when deciding which path you will take.

I am quite tired of this argument on all the "wars religion has caused" as well. Problem is, we are not talking about extremist religions here. The religion pertaining to the current argument is Christianity, and Christianity only. Sure the Christians have caused many wars and such over time (although none in hundreds of years), but they were for totally different causes. During Old Testament times it was driving out evil nations and abolishing their ways, and such. About the ones in Medieval times, I dont know much about, but I can't imagine there were many good morals floating around then anyway. Basicly, there is no possible way you can make Christianity out as a bad thing, at least the way I see it. I mean, if everyone in the world followed the the morals the Bible teaches, how good off would we be? Keep in mind I am really only speaking for my church, the non-denominational one..... I am afraid I might not know enough about the other denominations to speak for them.


This is way off topic though. Forgive me for keeping it going. Anyway, for a while I really have had no strong opinion towards the problem at hand. But then I got to thinking. Isn't this whole mairrage buisness a totally Christian thing? Correct me if I'm wrong (with a little proof preferably), but I think I am, for the most part, correct in saying that. Now, isn't the binding of two people in mairrage supposed to be "the right thing in God's eyes", or however that goes? Well, would God really approve of two gays being married? It's really just kind of insulting and contridictory to our teachings to have two Gays being married. Don't get me wrong now, I am all for equal rights towards gays. Although I may not agree with homosexuality, that doesn't mean they arn't equals to everyone else and everything. What I think should happen, if by some chance this anti-gay marriage thing becomes law, I think that a law should be passed that gives civil unions all the rights of marriage. That way gays can become a civil union and live together happily ever after, WITH all the rights of marriage. Thats what it all comes down to, I think. It's just all in the wording.

Basicly, I think gays should be married with all the rights of hetero's, it just should'nt be called a marriage. Or whatever. Just my 2 cents.

butta. I totally appreciate your viewpoint. I realize that many people in this country want their own religious beleifs, and its provided that you can beleive whatever you want in the constitution, so go for it. I'm not gonna argue. I was talking to one of the most homophobic people I've ever met at work, and he agreed that the government should let gays marry. He said something to the effect of "Well, those fags are going to hell for sure, but this is the United States and and the church's beleifs on morals shouldn't dictate our laws."

I mean, saying that "the founders were christian", and therefore we should base our laws off of the bible is ridiculous. Religious arguing is one of the most pointless activities, ever, and is up there with slamming your face into a door. I made the mistake of debating evolution once. It's pointless. I came to the conclusion that I didn't care that the other person was ignoring science, and I'm sure that he came to the conclusion that I was just wrong.

So, in light of this: Turtleman is an idiot. Shut up. We know you don't like religion. I agree with you, I'm athiest. But something I DO beleive in is the ability of the human race to make progress (please, no posts regarding this, someone start another thread for religion if you want), and dumb ass posts like yours simply alienate those who oppose gay marriage and hurts the cause of progress. And what does it get you?

I can't change the fact that the guy who I work with is a fucking homophobe. I can enter into a discussion with him about whether or not the constitution or the bible should govern America, and whether "the church says so" is a justifiable argument for discrimination by the state.

Excuse me gymkid dude, but how am I an idiot? I voiced my opinion. If you don't like it, then you don't need to say anything about it.

Why would it be unnatural? It's all genetical! You really can't choose if your heterosexual or homosexual, because it's all decided in your DNA! And that's completely natural! It's not a disorder or anything!

its genetical if there is something wrong with you. Maybe your a crack baby. Maybe it involves how you grew up. Who knows? Its not natural.

Would you just shut the fuck up already? Christ, kid.

CHrist disaproves of gays.


The power of Christ compels you! The power of Christ compels you!

Then Christ disaproves of a select group of humans... Gays are humans. Christ, God, Loves everyone including gays. God, I hope your banned again.

He disaproves of what gays do.

*splashes water on the turtleman*