General Chat / If you have a problem with NE, let's talk about it.

This was probably aimed at the older members who have been around for a while and can notice a change when they see it, but I hope no one minds me speaking my mind on this. I do consider myself more active on the Discord, than the site.

 

About the OP: being someone who is neither European nor American, I don't get that narrative.

 

About the Discord: Chat activity isn't a real issue, either, though I do agree with saxman on keeping the Discord slightly less accessible, by possibly making a certain requirement-quota based on activity, but also leaving some room for common sense (as an example, if a new member just comes on and posts a lot just to join the Discord, don't allow them the second they meet the requirement, and let the quality of their activity come into play). There are indeed quite a few members in there that occasionally chat who haven't posted a single thing on the website, and that's not good for the health of the Discord, given what we collectively expect the NE Discord should be like: a casual chat for the NE members where they can talk about stuff but also discuss the MP server as well as post some RCT work here and there that isn't fit for the site yet. Emphasis on 'yet'.

 

With that said, I kinda don't see why things have to get so worked up about that Discord. Faas was one of the early people to complain about it (on the lewd topics, as well as the personal life problem thing), and it seems pointless when you can just chill and hang around when people are talking about better stuff. It's like you have a very focused vision of what you want from the NE Discord when it clearly is just ever-so-slightly its own thing. And shouldn't it be? Going away from a Forum format, and to an instant messaging one, some people are bound to talk about shit they wouldn't talk about otherwise. There should be some restraint when some people get all insecure, though, yes, but then again, people that have that specific issue should indeed create their own Discord group or server where they can talk to the specific people they like to talk to. Discord is very flexible, my dudes, and one server shouldn't cater to your needs when there are better solutions out there.

"This is the first time I'm hearing of an 'American discord' and I'm sure it's the same for some of the other Europeans.
As multiple people have already pointed out, it definitely seems like the discord dies out a little when the Europeans go to bed, but surely if that's because you're all talking in another discord, that's where the problem is?"

Please read Bubbsy's post about how our discord got started, since it wasn't in any way out of spite for NE. I think that point needs to be stressed. It just so happens to, coincidentally, be a good place to talk about NE without the rest of NE having input (generally, telling you why you're wrong and whatnot). Only about half of the active american userbase is on my discord, and only about half of those use it as their primary server for RCT things.

 

"Also; this is a website centered around a 20 year old game. Why does 'power' and 'influence' over the site become a thing? Who cares about who runs the site and why?"

Because it directly affects site events and how things are run in general. And there are consequences to the lack of actual American representation. Awards from what I've heard have been skewed very much by only Liam and Louis being the deciding two for nominations (until it's given out to people via pm later, just for approval). And then to postpone the awards for the far more inactive admin of the two to be able to make it, giving the snarky "It's not awards without me!" line to justify it...
 
"For the first 10 years of the site it was always run by 1 or 2 guys who were always American, did that have any effect on Europeans? Absolutely not."

Are you sure it didn't? I mean the times where iris/cork/whoever dictated NE seems awful for how little outside input the community actually had...

"You're saying no one criticises Liam and Louis, but why would anyone criticise them if there's nothing to criticise...? Genuine question to you, what do you have to actually criticise them on?"

I don't have much on Liam. He's fairly good and I think tries to stay above the pettiness and drama that happens on NE. Louis on the other hand is very cliquish publicly, explicitly picks favorites (even if it benefits me somewhat), has said before that my group chat "is killing NE", and pretends to have more of a foothold and authority on NE than his activity or want to play RCT should dictate.
I've had arguments with both in the past, and they're fine people. Louis acts normal once you get him in DMs.

And it's really the new culture of NE that discord has brought that has led to favoritism and tribalism, which has led to this what you perceive as fake "EU v NA" thing. And what i fear is that this will, and already has, started to bleed out into what people think whose RCT works are good or not.

 

 

"With that said, I kinda don't see why things have to get so worked up about that Discord. Faas was one of the early people to complain about it (on the lewd topics, as well as the personal life problem thing), and it seems pointless when you can just chill and hang around when people are talking about better stuff. It's like you have a very focused vision of what you want from the NE Discord when it clearly is just ever-so-slightly its own thing. And shouldn't it be? Going away from a Forum format, and to an instant messaging one, some people are bound to talk about shit they wouldn't talk about otherwise"

 

I totally agree with this, which is why it pisses me off to see others say which content should be allowed and which shouldn't. There's obvious boundary lines, and as long those aren't crossed then it should be fine.
 

The "American" discord (if you want to call it that) is just an extension of our previous AIM group chat "Canes Chat" that was leftover from H2H7. As Bubbsy mentioned it's 99% a place where we play Fortnite without invading the official NE voice chat and 1% us talking RCT and sharing screens before they go on NE. It's not as exciting as it sounds.

 

My only qualms from the NE discord stem from the multiplayer channel where many of us literally attack each other for our decisions regarding that park (myself being guilty as well), and the multitude of micromanaging from many players that aren't even a part of said park(s). Offering useful criticism is fine and welcome (and encouraged), but don't go off on me or anyone for using certain fence types that aren't "Ruhr-enough" or any other petty shit like that. It happens too often by elitist members who are too pretentious for their own good, and it sours the unique experience of multiplayer RCT. 

Other issues are the sense of favoritism within the community that at times is quite apparent, but I don't feel too comfortable expressing that in public but am willing to do so with the admin team if someone is willing. I think it's something that may need to be addressed but I'm not sure if my social status here warrants me enough credit to detail it (or even make it valid), but it something that myself and a few other members have grown mildly frustrated with and I hope it doesn't become a bigger issue in the near future.

I really do enjoy the NE discord and hope it remains a permanent feature because without it I would hardly be active here. I love the instant feedback and response players get and the willingness of others to strike a conversation in text or over the voice channels, and honestly it's helped me grow closer to a community I was drifting away from. I agree that it's pulled some activity from the forums a bit, but conversation is conversation and we do still get new members both here and 'there', so there's still growth within this community which is needed in order to keep it alive. I would recommend making it more public to those only frequenting the site, but I'm not sure how we could achieve that without someone altering the homepage to include a fixed discord link.

I shouldn't have said it was EU v NA, in hindsight, because it's really only a clique that just happens to all be european that I have an issue with. The whole Louis/trav/RWE/etc. group of people is the people I have an issue with personally. It's not fair to put people like Liam or Fisch in with that category.

yall are fucking losers

Oh geez, this reminds me too much at the whole Flanders vs Walloonia shit. "We want to deliver the PM", "If Flanders has the PM we want this and this promise in return for Walloonia". Like children negotiating, not seeing the total picture but just blinded by their own interests. 

 

It's sad and pathetic, can't find any other words for it. If you have any problems with some specific persons, talk to them but don't make it a Europe vs America problem. Laying this down as 'there are too much Europeans' is just sad and non debatable. I think no one forbids the Americans to be more active on the Discord?! And personally, I love NE is a place full of different nationalities, I love to talk with people from over the world from different colors. It broadens your horizon...

Did anyone actually say “there are too [many] Europeans”? (Honest question, I really don’t know).

I shouldn't have said it was EU v NA, in hindsight, because it's really only a clique that just happens to all be european that I have an issue with. The whole Louis/trav/RWE/etc. group of people is the people I have an issue with personally. It's not fair to put people like Liam or Fisch in with that category.

I have no issue with you. If you have one with me, feel free to talk to me. Same goes for the other 15-20 members, if they exist.

I shouldn't have said it was EU v NA, in hindsight, because it's really only a clique that just happens to all be european that I have an issue with. The whole Louis/trav/RWE/etc. group of people is the people I have an issue with personally. It's not fair to put people like Liam or Fisch in with that category.

 

 

To echo what RWE has said, I have no issue with you and have even stuck up for you when I thought the community was treating you unfairly, especially during the Multiplayer stuff. 

 

If you have a problem with us, talk to us rather than painting half of the site with the same brush, that's what actually creates a divide through the community. 

I feel the need to reply since I was personally named.

- I have no issues with NE.
- I have no issues with the continent people are from.
- I don't care about favoritism, the competitive elements of this site never really personally interested me.

- I just have an issue with a bunch of random people showing up on the discord with no connection to the website whatsoever to vent about all their personal/mental issues. Get help and leave me alone, I just want to hang out and have fun, I'm not your therapist.

Also I get why some people might dislike me for voicing my opinion so strongly, but I don't mind playing the bad guy. Don't take stuff so personally, this is the internet.
In general, try to keep the internet and real life two seperate things, it's not healthy to get them mixed up.

I just like to play RCT2.

I was going to reply, and had a lengthy one written out, but I have no desire to really. I'll just say that:

 

1) If you have a problem with me, tell me, no point in carrying on not knowing what the problem is, this has been quite insightful.

 

2) Don't pretend to be a friend and then turn on me all of a sudden out of the blue. Clearly I need to learn who to trust with conversations that I assumed were private and between 2 friends.

 

3) I have nothing but love for this site and for (most of) its members. I try to be friendly and welcoming to all members until they piss me off. Everyone has favourites, they're called friends, they have no bearing on how I supposedly run the site.

 

4) The awards can be run whenever they want, typically they are at the end of Feb, I posted that "you can't have an awards ceremony without me" as a joke, cause I've 'hosted' every one for the last 6(?) years. I'd love to be at the awards, I always try and make it every year, but if people really want them ASAP (even though we aren't even going to be ready for then) we'll do them. I'm getting married and living my life, I'm really not that bothered about an awards night for a 20 year old game.

 

5) Louis/trav/RWE/version1 clique - fuck me this is funny, we just play civ 6 every now and then, we publicly say we are playing it, everyone is welcome to join, it really isn't a clique.

 

If anyone wants to talk to me directly about how I make them feel, or the problems I cause for the community feel free to message me privately (although it can't be guarenteed that it will stay private, evidently)

Did anyone actually say “there are too [many] Europeans”? (Honest question, I really don’t know).

 
Some discord quotes from last night:
 
Shogo: "Because natrually the best thing to see for NE as a whole is for the community to become less of a circlejerk and become less of a european echo chamber where everyone chares nearly the same opinion."
 
Shogo: "the argument is is that certain cliques that are european on ne have too much influence"
 
Nighteyes: "Maybe its about the majority of this discord being from europe, besides gamma, im pretty sure almost everyone here is european"
Shogo: No nighteyes is pretty much right when you account for activity. [...] Give me americans who arre active in this discord
 
It's definitely the implication. After that last quote, people came up with a whole list of active American discord members other than the ones in Shogo's discord - which got ignored. And it also doesn't help that the 'American discord' got purged of Europeans all of a sudden.
 
There's a lot to respond to in this thread which I'm happy about - it's a relief to have shit like this out in the open. I guess I'll just start with the above...
 
I still don't see this Europe vs. USA divide. I don't feel I'm part of a clique. Sure there are people I regularly talk to, but who doesn't? It's not a clique until it's a group. Steve, Fisch, Alex, Faas, posix... That's not a group. That's random people. European 'circlejerk' and 'echo chamber' just are clear bullshit in my eyes. Reddit buzzwords. If the Discord were so European and we all agree with each other... Why is it such a cesspool of annoyances and arguments spinning out of control? I just don't see it, apart from the rough Europe-USA divide you can see in RCT styles and preferences. I can't help but feel that this whole narrative is just a projection of personal preferences for/against specific people.

Here's my response to all that Shogo stuff:
 

because they exist on the NE discord polarizes the entire community.

 
That's absolute bullshit already. You make these "cliques" sound way more serious than they actually are. Obviously in a community there will always be people that like or don't like each other. But there is absolutely no polarizing happening because these "cliques" do not "work together" in any way, shape or form. You make it sound like these groups of people regularly team up against single individuals to dominate them in arguments which isn't happening at all. The whole clique narrative also makes it sound super un-inclusive which just isn't true at all.
 

This has led to people having social status in the discord that they honestly do not deserve (either based on their rct skill or otherwise)

Sorry to break this to you, but you are in no position to decide what status somebody deserves on discord. A social status on discord also isn't dictated by a single person but is decided by the entire active discord community.
 

You're not able to freely bring up any criticism of the site, how its ran, or any aspect of NE on the discord without being silenced by everyone who disagrees with you.

No. I am the foremost expert on criticizing how NE is run on the discord and I never felt like I've been "silenced" at all. People disagree with me, but that's fine and expected.
 

Certain divisive members on the discord are slowly but surely being allowed and accepted socially without their own opinions or mindset changing, because their friends in their respective cliques have so much influence on the discord channel.

So I guess this is aimed at me and Louis, since I can't think of any other constellation like this? I kinda want to remind you, that you are a very toxic entity yourself. In fact, you are amongst the worst people I ever encountered in online communities. So the whole throwing bricks when in the glass house thing applies here. Also, it's not like a lot of people aren't accepted on he disord, so you make the "problem" sound worse than it is.
 

And it's really the new culture of NE that discord has brought that has led to favoritism

Oh yes, let's talk about favoritism, shall we? Because in all the posts one thing became clear: That an admin (and I think everyone knows the most likely candidate) is talking to you about the internal discussions of NE admins. That is, for me and I hope for other members as well, an absolute no-go. Like, seriously. Private discussions, no matter if between the admins or in DM or whatever, are private. I don't expect from NE admins to be the most professional people of all time. But discussing, leaking or venting about internal discussions of the admins is an absolute no-go. On the same note, it's an absolute no-go to proudly show off your knowledge of the inner workings of NE in such a public way, since you really shouldn't know anything about it. I think it's also really hypocritical to bitch about favoritism when you have somebody on the admin panel that favorites you more than any of the admins you criticize favors anyone else.

yall are fucking losers

^^^^

I don't mean harm to anyone and I hope we can all be one happy community in the future just like we have been in the past. But there's one thing I want to say.

 

This thread discusses how multiple cliques have come up on the discord that now lead to tensions within the community. While I certainly think that a sense of seperation between the American and European members is indeed trying to force its way into the community, I can't say I personally know of any other clique than the American one.

 

Don't get me wrong, I want us to come together again and lose this idiotic split between the two sides. The problem is apparent and definitely existant. But I think it could easily be avoided and we are bringing it on ourselves a bit.

 

Trav, Louis, V1, RWE seem to play Civ together. But other than that I can't really say that I get the feeling they're an overly exclusive clique who stick up for each other more than anyone else. From following the discord chat I'd even say that V1 and RWE have actually had a go at each other frequently in the past, but just know to keep it to those discussions, and not take it too personal afterwards. I don't know if these guys have a group chat, but I don't get the feeling that they have any strong bond beyond being Civ compatriots.

Then there are Liam and Faas who at a stretch could be viewed as a "clique" (?), who are both Dutch and know each other from real life. But both have strong enough opinions themselves that they don't just bring forth joint points during discussions. While they may share a lot of opinions and might even sometimes stick up for one another (just guessing, I have no clue), they're still clearly individually driven members of the community who are trying to bring in their own personalities.

 

This is obviously the case for the American members that are secretly being adressed within this thread as well. Alex (British) added me to the "American discord" chat group for a short bit also and I can definitely say that there's not that much talking going on that it would work as a seperate community discord. As far as I can tell, it's really just what nin and bubbsy have been saying: a place for having voice chats for playing fortnite etc. Then there are some secret rct screens being posted as well, which is obviously perfectly acceptable for secret feedback during upcoming projects.

 

But one thing that I found was clearly visible ever since I joined the discord is that this group of American players are definitely a rather exclusive group of friends, with inside jokes, inside topics, and a lot of times also joint opinions. When I asked Shogo today about why I was kicked from the aforementioned discord chat (no problem here, it's perfectly fine), he said it was because people who didn't contribute to the group much were kicked, which is understandable. I really didn't actively take part in it. The reason behind my inactivity was mostly though, that I never felt like I belonged in there or was even intended to be there. Invited by Alex, who I wouldn't have thought was an actual part of that group either, and who has now been excluded again as well, I never thought I was actually a part of the real chat group (I was in there for around 5 weeks I'd guess and hardly wrote a message).

 

Differently to the European players I have named so far, from what I have experienced within the main discord, and within voice chat, it seems to me that this group of American players is one big combined body of people within most discussions and arguments. In case few of the people actually participate in those public discussions, I always got the feeling that once on voice chat together, where I have been a frequent talker as well, everyone from within that group would agree on exactly one joint opinion. So basically behind the back I felt this group of people would always agree. Having been on voice chat with RWE and V1 before as well, I can say that they would almost never agree on each other's opinions or in case they did, it wouldn't be for a feeling of communion.

 

It is perfectly okay to me that some of the American members have become friends in this community. In fact I'd obviously say that's a great thing! I'm glad people make friends on here, and I'm glad people play games together even beyond rct because they actually enjoy each other's company.

 

But I see this exclusive group of American friends as one reason for the split between the American and European members and I have seen it that way for a while. Just so you know, I'm personally in no group chat with any European members, I don't talk to any specific people on discord a lot. I just talk to those I randomly end up in discussions or voice chat with, be it Americans, Europeans, or whoever else.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that I don't feel that any clique is actually existant outside the American one. Nowadays there's definitely Americans vs Europeans but I feel like it's more of a consequence rather than an actual thing that will stay. I don't see any Europeans as part of one exclusive circle of friends and I doubt that this is close to becoming a thing either.

 

I feel like to avoid the split, we just all have to start wanting to talk to each others again. Kind of like if in a story of 2 gangs, both sides started talking and hanging out again without being within just their groups so much. They'd realize they'll get along well with the people from the other gang again if they just told the others some stuff about themselves and heard stuff from then in return. And in the end maybe they could all look each others in they eyes again, hang out with their old friends, hang out with their new friends, hang out together without any issues. Less sticking up for just the existing cliques(!), more actually being opened minded towards everyone who's present.

 

By continuing to be within these cliques and secluded communities, we'll just create a bigger issue than what's already in place.

We're a 15 year old public forum discussing a 20 year old game. I am genuinely boggled as to why anyone thinks your 'social standing' in this community is important to anything or anyone. 

 

I don't understand why there is a mindset of 'us vs them' or where it's come from. Do people really want more power in a small community such as this? Is that really what's gonna help you sleep

easier at night? This goes for both 'sides'. 

 

 

I think Fisch hit the nail on the head with a lot of his points too. I don't necessarily feel like that particular group of Americans is a clique, but I'd see it very similarly to what Shotguns is actually complaining about within the Europeans. Even more so now that I know they have an actual discord, that seems much more...clique'y than anything the supposed cliques have.

I don't understand why there is a mindset of 'us vs them' or where it's come from. Do people really want more power in a small community such as this? Is that really what's gonna help you sleep

easier at night? This goes for both 'sides'.

 

it's not a problem of wanting more power. It's a problem of wanting equal power.I personally haven't been affected by any "power struggle,"but I can see why some members feel this way.

Seeing that this discussion is still going on, i'll make my points now too, originally i thought offering an open talk would end it, since i think this has nothing to do with the community or how this site works, i have the feeling this is about personal issues between certain members and i think it is a terrible idea to commit this conflict on the back of the whole community. I already said if someone has a personal problem with me, message me and we can talk about it. I haven't got any messages yet, where people explained their points of view to me.

 

G_Force described well in his simple post how things are working overhere. The thing that is defining how things are represented overhere is activity. If people are having a problem with a certain game meta, or with how things are valued in the community, they can only change it with showing activity by themselves. And with that i'm meaning positive activity and being constructive. I don't feel like the starters of this topic are having that mindset at all and as said things won't change at all, if they aren't having it, they will probably get worse in their point of view.

 

Since i was called out personally, also some personal notes: I'm not aware of any shortlist for potential h2h8 captains i'm on, i doubt it exists. I would agree that there are many active, positive and constructive people here on the site, that have the ability to captain in a contest. I definitely indirectly threw my name in the ring for future contests on the discord server, but i'm aware how the process works and i'm also aware i still have a lot of room to improve (like everyone, both as a person and as a builder btw). What i have a problem with, is that i have the feeling certain people - i won't play the game of the other 'side' and naming people overhere, everyone can think theirselves who i mean - are intentionally valuing my stuff low to make themselves feel better or getting themselves into something, they think is a better position or social role or whatever in the community, and i have heard others are having the same feeling at the moment. Especially some comments i got on the discord server were incredibly disrespectful and not worth a mature standard. I want to have fun overhere and yes, i also want helpful criticism, but the way certain people are criticizing stuff is not helpful at all. Overhere i wanna agree with Fisch who explained it also really well.

 

Plus if certain people are having a problem with how they are represented on the site, they should first think about themselves before they blaim others for it. It's not happening many times, but overhere i completely agree with v1.

 

 

it's not a problem of wanting more power. It's a problem of wanting equal power.I personally haven't been affected by any "power struggle,"but I can see why some members feel this way.

 

 

But you're part of the group of Americans from within that clique, are you not? What is for example one of the issues where there is a clear inequality between the Americans and the Europeans. If you mention problems then just go ahead and name them clearly so that no one is in doubt as to what it is. Don't go into it with the teenage girl mindset of "I'm mad" - "what's the issue?" - "nothing".

 

You say you can see why some members feel that way. Who are they and what is the reason behind it?