News / The List

  • Lagom%s's Photo

    Why do you hate it, Version1? Or was it just a joke?

    Love this initiative. So nice to read about these parks. Will be downloading a few of them tomorrow. Interested to see what Alice in Wonderland looks like.
    Thanks for this! Keep em coming.

  • robbie92%s's Photo

    Oh yay, I made it on.

  • FredD%s's Photo

    SF Santa Fe and Brachiosaurus are parks I still open many times to get inspiration from. Those are just so good. 

  • Fisch%s's Photo
    I'm very surprised to see both Python/De Vliegende Hollander and Pirana on the list and I can't say I agree with it. Don't get me wrong please. They're both extremely good, they're both standout works by Liampie, who's certainly amongst the top players the site has ever seen. I respect him very much.

    But having both of them on a list of the 75 most outstanding/influential parks in RCT history is a bit weird for me. The site has seen thousands of players over the years who have all had their own park contributions and their own choices of influences. There are ridiculously many parks in the database. So to me it seems that most works in this list should have been game changers to at least a few people regarding the way they go about their rct.

    I opened Python and Pirana right after each other. Quite frankly, they might as well be on one map in my opinion. I think they'd be best included as one point in the list as 2 releases of the same order. Both are Efteling semi recreations, both use the same atmospheric style, both use the same forest setting obviously. So if one of them was already game changing, then the second one shouldn't be included for that same reason when they're basically an extension of each other. Including both means that other influential parks that are perhaps more different are going to miss out. It's like including Son of Kumba AND Kumba.

    For ages the American realism parkmakers have had to deal with people telling them their works are hard to separate. "Too similar", "not creative enough", "more of the same"... I'm one of those who's normally critical of that. So for a usually very conceptual builder like Liam, I can't just look away. While both are of an extremely high standard there's hardly any progression between them. I feel they're also not big enough to include one based on influence and the other based on pure quality. Looking through Liampie's work alone makes me want to include 6 other Liampie releases ahead of including both of these. And while he is certainly great it just wouldn't make sense to have a list that contains 10 of his creations. What about releases like Archimedes or Calypso LA by 5Dave, RCTNW's multi map projects, a standout rct majesty project, Beagle's Seven Stars with its presentation, Facemam's copycat solo, even something like Splashdown Waterpark or early Riverland with the outskirts and being the first actual multiplayer project?

    There are so many hardly remembered parks that were incredibly interesting at the time and would deserve being mentioned in this list ahead of including every single 100% quality work of a current top 3 player although they aren't really different.

    While I now know that the list positions are decided upon by the average position the jury gave the parks in their rankings, it still seems avoidable. Perhaps just pick one instead of two of the same type of park for the pre picked suggestions. Perhaps even debate and alter the list slightly after the average rankings are collected. But this way it's hard to understand for me.
  • FredD%s's Photo

    You have a point about DVH and Piranha. Sure, the list is about parks/projects that are remarkable in the history of NE and park making. In that case, no doubt Piranha has its place on it. It's the first non-coaster design, pretty remarkable to me. DVH is a great piece of work, but not in the way it's very remarkable. It's indeed in the same Efteling-style as Piranha and contains no remarkable innovations. 

  • inthemanual%s's Photo

    From my understanding, this isn't a list of the most influential parks, or of the most innovative, but a list of parks that have had an impact on the site or on the players that did the voting. 

  • trav%s's Photo

    this isn't a list of the most influential parks

     

     


    but a list of parks that have had an impact on the site

     

     

    I mean, is that not the same thing?

  • inthemanual%s's Photo

    Influential meaning people have built parks inspired by that park, or that they've had influence on how people build, vote, and play the game. By impact I really just meant things that make you go "Wow! That's great!" And may or may not influence the way people work. 

     

    Something that introduces a bunch of new objects that come into regular use or a new clever hack might be influential without being impactful, and something like Worlds of Fun that's very well done without being innovative might be impactful without being influential

  • trav%s's Photo


    Influential meaning people have built parks inspired by that park, or that they've had influence on how people build, vote, and play the game. By impact I really just meant things that make you go "Wow! That's great!" And may or may not influence the way people work. 

     

    Something that introduces a bunch of new objects that come into regular use or a new clever hack might be influential without being impactful, and something like Worlds of Fun that's very well done without being innovative might be impactful without being influential

     

     

    In that case, I would definitely say that the list is heavily based towards influential parks rather than impactful. Things like Pirana are rated so highly because it introduced big trees into the game. The issue there is that influential parks tend to be impactful, and impactful parks also tend to be influential. I don't think they're mutually exclusive, especially towards the top end of any list. I'd also say that most of the parks we've already seen are so influential simply because they're impactful. 

  • inthemanual%s's Photo

    I missed a few words in my first post, I was trying to say that parks  aren't here just for the influence they've had, but also for just being great parks. They arent mutually exclusive at all, but going off the examples given in the current argument, piraña is there because it's highly influential, and DVH is there because of its impact. They both have both, but one side or the other is clearly stronger in either of these examples. The top of the list will see parks that had a lot more of both. 

  • Liampie%s's Photo

    In that case, I would definitely say that the list is heavily based towards influential parks rather than impactful. Things like Pirana are rated so highly because it introduced big trees into the game. The issue there is that influential parks tend to be impactful, and impactful parks also tend to be influential. I don't think they're mutually exclusive, especially towards the top end of any list. I'd also say that most of the parks we've already seen are so influential simply because they're impactful.


    I agree with this entirely. When I designed the voting format for The List, I left the criteria a little open to interpretation for two reasons: 1) because the intended meaning of The List is hard to put into words, it's not a hard science; 2) because it would possibly generate more diversity in the list, and maybe also a healthy dose of potential controversy. The description that the judges got all pointed them in the direction of influential/important/iconic releases, and explicitely not best releases.

    As I said before, I will elaborate on the process more at the end. The final update will be a 'making of' I suppose.

    I'm very surprised to see both Python/De Vliegende Hollander and Pirana on the list and I can't say I agree with it. [...] I opened Python and Pirana right after each other. Quite frankly, they might as well be on one map in my opinion. I think they'd be best included as one point in the list as 2 releases of the same order. Both are Efteling semi recreations, both use the same atmospheric style, both use the same forest setting obviously. So if one of them was already game changing, then the second one shouldn't be included for that same reason when they're basically an extension of each other. Including both means that other influential parks that are perhaps more different are going to miss out. It's like including Son of Kumba AND Kumba.


    It's a bit awkward that two indeed similar releases ended up being list neighbours. When I made DVH/Python, I did imagine it being in the same park as Piraña, hence why a lot of things are stylistically consistent between the two, other than the foliage which is clearly more advanced in the former. I can't speak for the other judges and why their degree of consensus brought both designs on the list, but I can talk about what makes either design interesting on its own rather than as an extension of the other. Piraña's case is much more clear in my opinion. It started a foliage revolution (if I may be so bold to say that about my own work), by introducing multi tile trees that do not look like garbage like that fucking 2x2 oak tree. It also brought river rapids to a higher level of realism; at least I added realistic details that I hadn't seen before, and perhaps even haven't seen since. It was also the first non-coaster design other than an obscure thing from 2002 that wasn't even listed as a design until recently. It's also very high quality work, at least within my own catalogue of parks. DVH/ Python is less obvious. I think that technically it may be even better than Piraña, and being a double design (with two equally important centrepiece rides), with a much bigger scope too. It had a lot more content, almost to the point that you can call it a mini park. It may be top tier work in the genre of themed realism. Another aspect of the design, that is not often talked about, but what I think is rare to see, is that it shows how a park (in this case the Efteling) changes its style over time; how different designers take over the reins over the course of several decades and how that is reflected in the park. In DVH / Python, you can see four designers at work. This was very intentional. See the readme for more information. This could be considered an innovation or at least an expansion of the mainstream realism discourse. Sadly it didn't catch on so it's hard to call it influential nor impactful, but at least in my mind it makes the design stand out in a unique way.

    While I now know that the list positions are decided upon by the average position the jury gave the parks in their rankings, it still seems avoidable. Perhaps just pick one instead of two of the same type of park for the pre picked suggestions. Perhaps even debate and alter the list slightly after the average rankings are collected. But this way it's hard to understand for me.


    That would defeat the purpose of the mathematical method we used. It would also be an infinitely long process, with not all the judges being available either.

    What about releases like Archimedes or Calypso LA by 5Dave, RCTNW's multi map projects, a standout rct majesty project, Beagle's Seven Stars with its presentation, Facemam's copycat solo, even something like Splashdown Waterpark or early Riverland with the outskirts and being the first actual multiplayer project?


    If it were up to me, I would also take parks out and put others in. I could definitely see Seven Stars being on there for example, but it never really was as much of a thing on NE I feel. It's not in the database for example. I've been thinking about making a small second list of non-NE parks, featuring stuff like Seven Stars, one or two Paul parks, South Beach, that kind of stuff. Maybe also something like a short list of honorary mentions. All unofficial though. Maybe we could do that together? Could be fun!

    As for the other parks you mentioned... There are still 45 parks on the list to be revealed. ;)
  • bigshootergill%s's Photo

    I had fun checking out some of the parks in Part 2 of "The List", I love some of the older styles of building. It's funny how they provide key elements to where NE is today, for their age and time they're very much appreciated for their 'impact and influence' :p , but if we were to have something like them released today there wouldn't be the same amount of appreciation as their original release. I guess that's shown in the Pre-Accolade Scoring Task Force. From The List so far I'm talking more about parks like Helios, Cayman Islands, Wormwood, Euroscape, basically Phatage's works. So it's nice to see "The List" giving credit where credit is due.

     

    Some of my personal favorites from Part 2 are:

    - Cayman Islands - simply beautiful and beautifully simple

    - Mirage Islands - it's impressive to see a blend of many building styles come together for this fantastic park

    - Python/Vliegende Hollander- love the atmosphere and execution

    - Brachiosaurus - the archy has a certain 'specialness' to it creating a wonderful atmosphere

    - Alice in Wonderland - for it's age it seems so groundbreaking, I love everything in this park

    - Six Flags Sante Fe - of course, just a fantastic park

    - #diamondheights - enjoyed seeing this park come together in H2H - hit the nail on the head!

    - Mario Kart: All-Cup Tour - didn't think anything I built would hit The List, I'm honored :)

     

    It's cool just to see what parks brought about major change, like Liam's multi-tile trees, or cBass' black tile movement, literally changing the shapes of parks since 2003. As for Mount Doom, I don't really get it. Can't wait to see the upcoming 45 to go.

  • ][ntamin22%s's Photo
    Much of the "impact" of a park isn't really determined until some time has passed, anyway. It's a worthwhile discussion to try and clarify if we're talking about at-release, in-present-day, or somewhere in between.

    To give a current example, Lake Chronos was something that was easily a "crown jewel of the LL revival" and a "highlight in the career of an upcoming new player" until alex released back-to back spotlights. At this stage the narrative for Chronos is much more about how it was a stepping stone to Discovery and Luna.
  • G Force%s's Photo


    ...It started a foliage revolution (if I may be so bold to say that about my own work), by introducing multi tile trees that do not look like garbage like that fucking 2x2 oak tree...
     

     

    Haha, yeah totally.

  • bigshootergill%s's Photo

    We missed 2 weeks of "The List" releases :(  Hopefully you guys have some time to post some more this coming week.

  • dr dirt%s's Photo
    Magic Realms... ugh. No idea why that is a spotlight or why it's on this list. Same with Rosetta Sphere - I thought 5dave won the vote for best Micro-Madness anyway with the space launch micro.

    I also am unsure about Python and Pirhana being in the top 75. Personally, you can only take so many designs and I'm not sure those would be in there.

    The rest looks like a good list.
  • bigshootergill%s's Photo

    ... at this rate, we'll still be getting bits and pieces of "The List" released in 2018 during H2H... :D

  • G Force%s's Photo

    Never been a fan of BGS, but I guess it sort of has to be on here.  Why The Island is on there I have no idea either... can't say I agree with The Masterpiece being so high as well.

     

    A nice park, but nothing unique or special or dare I say significant, at least to deserve the #31 spot.

  • dr dirt%s's Photo

    The Island? wtf fellas.

  • Poke%s's Photo

    The Island is impeccable. truly nothing like it.

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