General Chat / 2016 Elections

@In:Cities I have to say I agree with you about almost all of what you said. You're spot on, especially with the role of the leftist-controlled media, which, paired with the DNC, failed to see their blindness when they decided to rig the primaries against Bernie and push Hillary as their candidate despite the overwhelming low approval rating she had. Hillary was absolutely the worst candidate they could've picked at a time when racial tensions were at an all time high in recent with Black Lives Matter, which isolated the white vote away from the left, and she wasn't able to recapture them with an inspiring message that pushed for CHANGE from the current situation. The disaffected white voter base that pushed Trump to the win was looking for CHANGE from Obama's 8 years, and she promised them the same damn thing for the next four. 

 

While I, as a minority living in an urban environment in a blue state, loved the 8 years we had under Obama and think he did a fantastic job taking us from an economic low of the 2008 recession to where we are now, that effect isn't felt by a lot of people living in rural areas, especially the Rust Belt, where many low-income white families are still suffering. The democrats really fucking dropped the ball on this one, and their "holier-than-thou" attitude alienates the right even more. It's time for the left to get off our asses and listen to the silent majority who finally got a voice in this election. All the name calling of all Trump's base as racist bigots is not going to help change their stances nor fix this divide. 

 

That said, we CANNOT write off the racist uprisings that have been coming from Trump's base, especially now that he has won. There are already multiple reports of violence against Muslims, Blacks, and Asians across the nation from Trump supporters: Swastikas and N-word scrawled in graffiti, racial attacks and harassment in broad day light, etc. It's UNACCEPTABLE that these ass-backwards people are now thinking this is the right way to act. Trump needs to condemn any and all of these horrible actions immediately and focus on the economic plight that his platform pushed instead of the terrible racial narratives that has enraged the left. The republicans need to realize that coupling their economic policies with racial discrimination is extremely detrimental to their party and they need to separate themselves from that ASAP. 

And as for people saying "what's done is done, get over it...", I'm going to remind you that the fight is never done, and if you truly cared about progressive values and ideas, you'd fight Trump all the way to preserve all the social progress we've made under Obama's presidency (LGBTQ rights, protection for planned parenthood, removal of racist stop-and-frisk laws, etc.) while preventing new racist legislation from going through (racial profiling and banning of Muslim immigrants, the deportation of millions of illegal immigrants instead of providing a legal path to citizenship, etc.). Do this by becoming involved in local elections. Support your senators and your local representatives. Vote in the midterm elections. Donate to organizations that support your values and help fight against those that you disagree with. Don't just sit idly by and say "well that's that, there's nothing you can do now". That defeatist attitude is the LAST thing we need during this important moment in American history.

While I'm sure that there are many racially motivated incidents occurring from within the Trump base as you have mentioned, don't be blind to how dirty the liberal / sjw / democrat / whatever you want to call them, have been over the past few years.

 

I don't put much stock into James O'Keefe and the Project Veritas videos, (I think he overhypes his videos way too much and is overly dramatic) the videos showcasing the involvement of Bob Creamer, Scott Foval, Aaron Black, and others with staged riots, protests, etc are extremely damning and revealing. Many of the protests over the past year or two have been sparked by people like this who are being funded, supported, or ordered by their higher ups. (DNC played a big role, but honestly it looks like its even higher up. A lot of people have been connecting this type of discord back to George Soros and the organizations he funds stateside, which could be true - although I still remain skeptical and won't be quick to jump to conclusions.) Based on these videos, their own admissions under hidden camera, and through video confirmation (Looking up footage from various past riots and protests in which these specific individuals working for these groups have been spotted in the crowds participating and inciting protest) I wouldn't put it past them to employ similar tactics even now. They certainly stand to gain quite a bit from 'attention grabbing' media headlines showing just how horrible 'Trump Supporters' are, when in reality there is a TON of anti-Trump supporters who are acting equally if not more barbaric. I'm not going to go into detail about this - but the information is out there - although much of it would come from right-leaning sources as the democrat/liberals have it in their best interest to pretend that this doesn't exist. From my point of view however, it definitely has a base in reality and is pretty hard to deny once viewing the videos and looking for evidence of this occurring.

 

Thats not to say that the people out there protesting now don't have a right to do so. And certainly not saying that this is all 'fake'. I do believe that a lot of these uprisings are indeed organic. But I've also learned very quickly that you can't believe all that you hear online in regards to these kinds of incidents. For instance, you might only be seeing news sources and stories on social media that originate from a viewpoint similar to your own - thus only providing you with one side of the story. While you may not be receiving the information or report about that incident from the OTHER perspective. We've all seen how easy it is for things to be twisted around via social media these days. Its so easy to see things out of context.

 

This goes both ways. While I don't deny that these uprisings exist - I just feel that its important to take a step back and try to see things from a third person perspective. If the news source or individual reporting the incident stands to gain something from it or if it furthers their narrative, there is always a chance that a portion of the story could be fabricated or twisted.

 

As a recent example:

http://www.cbsnews.c...dmits-she-lied/

 

Definitely not trying to offend anybody here, and I respect each of you and your opinions. We all see life from different perspectives and believe what we believe for a number of reasons and circumstances leading up to this point in our lives.

 

That all said - I have to be at work early tomorrow morning and there are protests going on that are shutting down some of the roads that I take to get there each day. I don't care who they are or aren't supporting; I'm going to be pissed off beyond belief if they are in my way. I need my paycheck to survive just as much as anyone!

Was just thinking earlier today, that I really enjoyed how this discussion has stated mostly factual and respectful of each other.
Agree in the sense that he's been elected and people will have to deal with that. Disagree completely with saying it's worse than anything Trump's done. The man has led to so much hate being spewed around (examples in this topic). Oh, and he's on trial for rape. Admittedly, he hasn't been convicted yet. But rape is much worse than complaining about the president-elect https://www.change.o...-on-december-19

I don't recall Trump beatin anyone for voting against him. And, do you think legal allegations are out of the ordinary for someone at that level? That kind of thing is commonplace, besides I haven't seen anything fruitful on this rape charge with a quick search.. feel free to prove me wrong.

Seriously, if he wasn't a white male this wouldn't be a thing. He proposes some stuff that steps on some toes, but this isn't a moral/ethical circle jerk. It's a government, there's plenty of other avenues for that. Not many agree with all his shit, but Christ just because he's elected doesn't mean America is any more racist.

All Drumpf has done has bring the already racist underbelly to the surface..... I for one am glad...now I know to whom my 5 inch glitter heel deserves a good solid face kick.

I don't recall Trump beatin anyone for voting against him.

He may not do it himself, but he surely does evoke the idea:

http://www.vox.com/2...0/trump-violent

http://www.nytimes.c...inton.html?_r=0

http://mashable.com/...e/#6WQvsBcapiq4

 

And, do you think legal allegations are out of the ordinary for someone at that level? That kind of thing is commonplace, besides I haven't seen anything fruitful on this rape charge with a quick search.. feel free to prove me wrong.

I'll have to eat some of my words in the rape-case because the woman has pulled back in fear. https://www.theguard...ls-public-event

Even if she is right and Trump raped her, he's - for now - free from that accusation. The man still has a court-date on November 28th for fraud: http://www.msnbc.com...date-fraud-case

Seriously, if he wasn't a white male this wouldn't be a thing. He proposes some stuff that steps on some toes, but this isn't a moral/ethical circle jerk. It's a government, there's plenty of other avenues for that. Not many agree with all his shit, but Christ just because he's elected doesn't mean America is any more racist.

You're probably right on the last part. Like Meretrix said, he may not have made America more racist but he did bring its racist side to a clear surface. That could actually be a good thing if these uprisings, protests and hate-marathons stop. Still, I'd say it isn't the problem that his stuff just 'steps on some toes'. His comments on immigration have led legal immigrants to receive white-power flyers in the mail, swastikas on the walls and direct comments in their face saying they should go back to their country. Same goes for those from the second generation. Those people simply don't feel safe in their home country anymore.

havent been on the site of late cuz ive been rioting and torching cars that have trump bumper stickers

Question for the people here who are not opposed to Trump: what would it take for you to identify a president or a regime as being fascist? Where do you draw the line? I'm honestly curious.

Well: "Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete, and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties. Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society. Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature, and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

 

 

I think we still have a long way to go.

 

Besides, the travel ban was originally implemented in 2011 by Obama for 6 months, the exact same law.  I believe executive orders can only be legislation that was implemented in the past, so new laws cannot simply be drafted up and put into action by executive order.  They have to have been implemented at sometime in the past.

Particularly about the travel ban, i think intent is somewhat important here, the current travel band is planned to be interim until a long term one can be introduced

america is a settler colony built by slave labor on stolen land. its economy cannot function without free labor (currently outsourced to for-profit prisons that fill labor yards with Possession arrests) and foreign wars. whether or not it fits the wikipedia definition of "fascist" should be no concern to anyone. as a state it has no right to exist.

Honestly, it's genuinely frustrating to know that before I even find time to date someone, the government is working to take that right away from me

Well: "Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete, and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties. Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society. Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature, and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

 

 

I think we still have a long way to go.

 

Besides, the travel ban was originally implemented in 2011 by Obama for 6 months, the exact same law.  I believe executive orders can only be legislation that was implemented in the past, so new laws cannot simply be drafted up and put into action by executive order.  They have to have been implemented at sometime in the past.

 

Not the same law. 

The obama policy did not include green card holders or legal residents and was restricted to Iraqi citizens, was not a ban on entry but an increase in the intensity of screening (and mandated re-screening of the Iraqis already in-country) that added a six-month buffer to the entry process while the government caught up on the backlog with new more time-intensive screening procedures.   

Bannon's order blocks all travel including people who are green card holders, legal immigrants who retain citizenship from the 7 countries, anyone who has a dual citizenship with a third country (i.e. person with Australian/Somali dual citizenship), etc. etc. People who have already done the immigration screening and Homeland Security  / Customs / whoever else decided were A-OK, cmon in, the new executive order says "leave the country and you can't come back in [temporarily but for at least 6 months from order effective date and open to infinite extension whenever we feel like it].

 

Executive orders may be anything the president wants but will be found invalid by congress/courts if they directly contradict policies previously passed by congress. 

 

Congress hasn't passed any legislation specifically stating "president may not block refugees" so he did; congress has previously passed legislation to the tune of "legal immigrants [green card holders] can't be blocked," so the ACLU sued on that grounds and a federal judge found the case to have merit so a stay on the executive order has been issued.  Trump and Bannon have decided they don't have to play by those rules and people have been held at customs anyway despite the stay, the ACLU has sued for contempt, and generally even if you agree with the order it's hard to debate that it was unbelievably clumsy to implement it as "effective immediately" and to conveniently exclude the two countries terrorists have actually attacked the US from that also conveniently have Trump business holdings.

[ntamin22' timestamp='1485755241' post='714351']

 
Not the same law. 
The obama policy did not include green card holders or legal residents and was restricted to Iraqi citizens, was not a ban on entry but an increase in the intensity of screening (and mandated re-screening of the Iraqis already in-country) that added a six-month buffer to the entry process while the government caught up on the backlog with new more time-intensive screening procedures.   
Bannon's order blocks all travel including people who are green card holders, legal immigrants who retain citizenship from the 7 countries, anyone who has a dual citizenship with a third country (i.e. person with Australian/Somali dual citizenship), etc. etc. People who have already done the immigration screening and Homeland Security  / Customs / whoever else decided were A-OK, cmon in, the new executive order says "leave the country and you can't come back in [temporarily but for at least 6 months from order effective date and open to infinite extension whenever we feel like it].
 
Executive orders may be anything the president wants but will be found invalid by congress/courts if they directly contradict policies previously passed by congress. 
 
Congress hasn't passed any legislation specifically stating "president may not block refugees" so he did; congress has previously passed legislation to the tune of "legal immigrants [green card holders] can't be blocked," so the ACLU sued on that grounds and a federal judge found the case to have merit so a stay on the executive order has been issued.  Trump and Bannon have decided they don't have to play by those rules and people have been held at customs anyway despite the stay, the ACLU has sued for contempt, and generally even if you agree with the order it's hard to debate that it was unbelievably clumsy to implement it as "effective immediately" and to conveniently exclude the two countries terrorists have actually attacked the US from that also conveniently have Trump business holdings.

I do agree that the implementation and extent of the ban is quite clumsy, personally this is one of the few things that I believe he has stumbled on up to this point. However, it's just immigration, while an unfortunate part of the world it's far from the biggest tragedy in history that some are making it out to be. It's almost as if people believe that immigration to the US is a right.

While I'm not a fan of how executive orders have been used by either of our two most recent presidents, they're pretty flimsy in terms of legal standing and in this case are limited in time frame.

That being said, our immigration system is a joke and hopefully during however long this lasts the system can be improved. The visa system especially is extremely weak and need to be re evaluated, at least in my opinion. In the end I hope this does some good, the amount of delusion this has caused it's pretty shocking, from both sides. Doesn't help that 90% of people get all their info from social media now, and the ease of spreading false information is amazingly simple as long as a few people want to believe it. Hell, you have people protesting this order who would be executed the instant they set foot in most of these countries.

I think it also is important to know that these countries weren't just chosen out of a hat, they were determined to be "counties of concern by Congress and the Obama administration". Obviously we'll probably never know the standing of the other Muslim majority counties, but it's not like they just pulled up a list of Muslim majority counties and chose 7 of them at random.

 It's almost as if people believe that immigration to the US is a right 

 

It's quotes like this that scare me because it dehumanizes the people involved. No it is not an inherent right to have access to US citizenship but the fact of the matter is death or crippling poverty is the more often than not, the alternative. And for any one individual to say that they can at will condemn thousands to death, is awful to say the least

personally this is one of the few things that I believe he has stumbled on up to this point.  

 

 

I'd like to see you elaborate on this.  Or rather, talk your way out of it.  Relations with Mexico, National Park service shenanigans, the inauguration lies, the subsequent Spicer press conference, Bannon on national security council, illegal voting lies, etc.

 All I can think at this point is that his game is to play chicken with the rest of the republican party to prove to them they can't manipulate him.  Just put out the most outlandish stuff possible and watch senators dance in front of increasingly angry constituents knowing he's immune because they worked so hard to ingratiate his particular brand of hooliganism on their base.

 

 

 

However, it's just immigration, while an unfortunate part of the world it's far from the biggest tragedy in history that some are making it out to be. It's almost as if people believe that immigration to the US is a right.

While I'm not a fan of how executive orders have been used by either of our two most recent presidents, they're pretty flimsy in terms of legal standing and in this case are limited in time frame.

That being said, our immigration system is a joke and hopefully during however long this lasts the system can be improved. The visa system especially is extremely weak and need to be re evaluated, at least in my opinion.

 
 

Then back politicians who want a stronger visa system through managed and reasonable expansion, not this hamfisted nonsense.

Besides, If you think the current system for visa approval - particularly for refugees - is weak, you're not going to think much better of the Trump plan, which is basically just "more database checks, more interviews."  Or, you know, a stepping stone to even more outlandish xenophobic isolationism.  

 

I'm tempted to just post that whole article verbatim, because it is 100% Trump swinging wildly back and forth between "territories proven in the past to be terrorist backers" and "lol just ban all muslims" with Republicans desperately trying to cover for him, because those are the same thing to Trump.

 

We're in agreement about Executive Orders.  They've been around for forever, but in the past decade they've almost become the primary means of federal governance because Congress has devolved into a race to the obstructionist bottom.  

 
It's quotes like this that scare me because it dehumanizes the people involved. No it is not an inherent right to have access to US citizenship but the fact of the matter is death or crippling poverty is the more often than not, the alternative. And for any one individual to say that they can at will condemn thousands to death, is awful to say the least

 

I agree, the refugee system is a disaster, but people shouldn't simply be admitted to the country without proper screening and background checks.  Just because you're a "refugee" doesn't mean that you're also a saint.  That being said, I do think that there needs to be a better global effort when it comes to the handling of this issue, its infinitely more efficient to house these refugees in countries near to their homes than half way across the planet.  Not only that, but addressing the actual conflict causing the displacement should be the start of that. 

 

But when I talk about "rights" I'm not speaking from the perspective of the refugee's, obviously they often have very little freedom when it comes to this.

But isn't that what a Visa is for? To screen and check backgrounds. You can't get in without a visa, and if you don't meet certain requirements or are suspicious you don't get one.

 

You can't tell me that with the intelligence countries like UK and USA have and all the spying they do, that they can't use the information that have that enables them to watch suspected terrorists to stop them from getting a visa and thus no access to the country.

 

If you have a suspicious background or criminal history or are known to security networks etc then you won't get a visa, and wont get into the country. To blanket ban whole entire nations is just ridiculous, racist, discriminatory and lazy.

 

And tbh, it isn't even the fact that it is whole nations, but dual citizenship too. So a British Syrian isn't allowed access to the US because they were born in Syria, even though they are considered British. (I know now that this is no longer the case, but it was originally.) How is that not discrimination and being unfairly treated because of the country of birth?

I'm not looking for an argument, I try to stay clear of political debate but this is my two cents:

 

When it comes to politics I always try to look at the positive and think, well whilst this isn't the ideal outcome IMO it may turn out not so bad (David Cameron elected PM in 2010 - turned out to be an OK result, better than what we have now). I was very much we'll see how it goes with the whole Trump thing, because at the end of the day, it isn't my country and I not voting in this leader, plus it wasn't going to directly affect me.

But with this latest stupidity from the US, to be proud of a country that has just gone and done something this unbelievably stupid, most US citizens should be ashamed. From building a wall on the border of Mexico to applying a blanket ban on certain nationalities from entering the country, almost the entire world now sees the US like they see North Korea. In fact, I'd consider worse because US is actually in full view of everyone and has influence over the whole world.

I'm ashamed at my own country, because we have a leader that rather than challenges the president on this issue (like pretty much every other political party with influence) says nothing and acts like there is no issue, until its too late and they've come under immense pressure to say something, and it turns out that they still only say 'yeah we don't agree really but oh well, i'm still not going to say anything because we are trying to leave an organisation we don't really want to leave and need as many friends outside of that organisation as we can get.'

The fact of the matter is that you had a president that managed to get into power because people believed that he would do great things and that the lack of political background made him a person for the people. I saw a lot of positive in this, but my god has that backfired. 

The US literally has a monkey in charge that has simultaneously pressed all of the buttons at once, and has a friend in the spineless slug that is in charge of the UK. 2016, was the year casual racism won, "I'm not racist, but..."

You see, I'm more in the individualist camp. I believe it's totally unlawful to treat people like criminals for their country of origin, and mobility is both a freedom and innate human right. To say that Americans can decide who enters in the potential face of danger is to imply that American lives are more valuable than other lives

[ntamin22' timestamp='1485764099' post='714356']

 

 

I'd like to see you elaborate on this.  Or rather, talk your way out of it.  Relations with Mexico, National Park service shenanigans, the inauguration lies, the subsequent Spicer press conference, Bannon on national security council, illegal voting lies, etc.

 All I can think at this point is that his game is to play chicken with the rest of the republican party to prove to them they can't manipulate him.  Just put out the most outlandish stuff possible and watch senators dance in front of increasingly angry constituents knowing he's immune because they worked so hard to ingratiate his particular brand of hooliganism on their base.

 

 

 

 
 

Then back politicians who want a stronger visa system through managed and reasonable expansion, not this hamfisted nonsense.

Besides, If you think the current system for visa approval - particularly for refugees - is weak, you're not going to think much better of the Trump plan, which is basically just "more database checks, more interviews."  Or, you know, a stepping stone to even more outlandish xenophobic isolationism.  

 

I'm tempted to just post that whole article verbatim, because it is 100% Trump swinging wildly back and forth between "territories proven in the past to be terrorist backers" and "lol just ban all muslims" with Republicans desperately trying to cover for him, because those are the same thing to Trump.

 

We're in agreement about Executive Orders.  They've been around for forever, but in the past decade they've almost become the primary means of federal governance because Congress has devolved into a race to the obstructionist bottom.  

 

Relations with Mexic:  Well, I sort of fail to see the problem considering that Mexico has little to zero leverage in with the US.  Accourding to Worldsexports.com, Mexico operates on a 121.9 Billion dollar surplus with the US on trade, the next highest is Columbia at 2.7 Billion.  Not only that, but greater than 80% of Mexico's total exports are to the US, the next highest country is Canada at 2.8%. http://www.worldstop...mport-partners/http://www.worldstop...mport-partners/ (here's another source if you don't like that one)

https://en.wikipedia...e_United_States

 

Looking at these sort of numbers its kind of staggering.  I find it hard to understand how they have any sort of leverage in the discussion.  NAFTA is a disaster, and has been for a long time, I think everyone should agree with that.

 

National Park service:  Maybe I'm just ignorant but I fail to see the point (or the need) of the National Park's having a twitter page at or, especially one that retweets politically charged material.  If the account exists is should be for the service of the parks, its visitors and employees, not one that comments on the attendance of political events.   Personally I have zero issue with Trump's handling of the situation.  Considering it's probably just some intern or young employee running the account, I don't see why its such a tragedy.

 

Inauguration Lies:  I don't really know the issue on this one, personally I found all talk about the attendance of the inauguration laughable from both sides, as if somehow the attendance of the even its a demonstration of the future success of a presidency.  As far as the press conference, again, laughable on both sides, but not a "stumble".  I don't think its at all an issue, for the most part, in my point of view, big media is definitely has push a negative angle with just about everything to do with Trump, which to me is just as big of, or if not bigger, than anything Trump has done to this point outside of the immigration policy.

 

Bannon on the nation security council: Well, personally I fail to see the crime in putting a Washington outsider on the council.  This is 100% normal practice to put white house counsel members on the staff, so I'm not sure why this is at all an issue.  Perhaps you have a problem with him, in which case every single appointment in White House history is a misstep if you ask the right person.

 

Illegal Voting Lies:  I'm not really sure what you're angle is on this, are you referring to illegal immigrant voting, Russian influence, or something else?

 

Immigration: So you're not a fan of increased screening and background checks?  I fail to understand how this isn't "managed and reasonable expansion".  Unless we just assume that somehow they will only exhibit "xenophobic and isolationism" because of these interviews and background checks, and that in the old system made it impossible.

 

But really, I don't care to argue about politics, I just responded to you because I respect your opinion and because you asked me to defend my position.  I could go on rants for ages about all the problems within politics, because frankly I find it hard to find any side in most issues, and all the unnecessary (or perhaps necessary) issues that have cropped up due to this election cycle.