H2H7 / Kumba's Thoughts (H2H7)

I have, no changes get made. At least not to the post-season parks. I think it's better to bring it up now then start shit when a new season is getting set to open.

 

The way you did is aggressive and arrogant. That's what I'm trying to say.

 

Agree with ITM. You can't discuss rules off H2H8 when there even isn't a H2H8 yet. Now bashing on the rules seems like blaming the referee you lost.  

I'm not going to compete unless the NEDC recipe is changed from muffins to cupcakes! Don't limit my sprinkles!

I don't understand the need to change the post season rules... H2H7 has always had these restrictions. If what you're calling for is a team park, then why don't you gather a team and make a team park without the need of H2H7 to spur you on? If making a team park is that important to you, then do it; I would love to see a full on team park too, it's been a while since we've had one at NE! Remember those old school team parks like NE Masters Isles, Florencia Valley and whatnot? We should have another one

Great read, Kumba. I do always look forward to your end of the season's final thoughts to see what chaos your team descends into you guys had a great season and solid team. Hope to see the Eras of America park finished in it's original vision. Also, maybe I missed it, but why wasn't nin on Paradise Pier? Did we even get a nin + Pac park or am I just going crazy?

 

Something that caught my eye in your post is Shotguns getting rookie of the year. I'm not saying he isn't deserving. However, he's been a relatively big name for a while and been posting quality work even before the contest. Not to vouch for my own team, but Tolsimir opened and closed the season for us with two of the best parks in the contest and he's been basically inactive prior to the contest. Hopefully he at least gets a nod!

Tolsimir competed in H2H5, hence him not being a rookie. He's been around longer than I have

 

Just give him an MVP nod instead.

Rookie of the Year has to be someone doing H2H for the first time. Stoksy should also be a front runner, but I think due to overall building shares and work level that Shogo should edge him. It will be close.

yeah tols will get an mvp nod no doubt.

I don't understand the need to change the post season rules... H2H7 has always had these restrictions. If what you're calling for is a team park, then why don't you gather a team and make a team park without the need of H2H7 to spur you on? If making a team park is that important to you, then do it; I would love to see a full on team park too, it's been a while since we've had one at NE! Remember those old school team parks like NE Masters Isles, Florencia Valley and whatnot? We should have another one

 

He just wants more people to get involved, make it more fun for the lot of the team that normally wouldn't be able to build on the park.  It would probably increase the quality of these parks as well if you have more builders, which would benefit everyone.  

 

I think the format of the finals has always been somewhat of a weak point of H2H, it always seems that he quality of the finals parks isn't always as high as they could be either due to being unfinished or rushed.  Last H2H the finals was a huge letdown as the Replacements park was unable to reach its potential due to the deadline.  H2H5's final had a forfeit, which was extremely disappointing compared to strength of the regular season.  This H2H had a grand finale, where the parks essentially had two week extensions, yet two of the parks were unfinished, and I definitely think that the other two would have benefited greatly from more time or builders.

 

Back when the format of H2H was developed, parks were built in 30-40 game years, compared to 200+ today.  Its simply not possible to expect the quality of the parks to continue to rise if the deadlines say the same  Not saying that the Round Robin has to change, because I think the deadlines are part of the point.  But when it comes to the finals, or grand finale if we do this again in the future, we should put the quality of the parks over the deadlines or restrictions of round robin.  Its not like we have a window where the contest has to take place, sure during the summer its probably easier, but ending the contest in July still leaves quite a bit of time where a majority of the members have increased amount of free time.

 

Maybe if we restructure the contest where it starts slightly earlier in the year, maybe have the first round the first week of April, then have 2 weeks in between like we have now.  That would put the 5th round in the middle of June.  Then have a long gap to the grand finale, with a deadline in mid August.  Maybe this would relieve the pressure on the builders and spread the work load out, giving people more time to enjoy their summer and less stress to finish an amazing park in a short time.

 

Sorry if this isn't the time for suggestions for the next H2H, but there's always room for improvement, and I think everyone can agree that the format can always be improved.

He just wants more people to get involved, make it more fun for the lot of the team that normally wouldn't be able to build on the park.  It would probably increase the quality of these parks as well if you have more builders, which would benefit everyone. 

 

More builders means more people allowed to slack off and more confusion. More builders usually means less quality IMO.

 

Maybe if we restructure the contest where it starts slightly earlier in the year, maybe have the first round the first week of April, then have 2 weeks in between like we have now.  That would put the 5th round in the middle of June.  Then have a long gap to the grand finale, with a deadline in mid August.

 

Long deadlines just do not work. Pro Tour 3 anyone? The longer a deadline is, the more interest is lost. H2H is already long enough that interest starts to dwindle, extending deadlines would add to this even more and make it catastrophic. Again, Pro Tour 3.

Other European countries have the same Mother's day tho. Pretty sure it was the same for the Dutch and Germans. Maybe I should have taken more time to comment on all the good moves Louis made as ref, but it's human nature to remember negative things better. Going back to that pacific island time zone so everyone gets to build to midnight would be most fair, as right now Europe gets a edge of 5-9 hours over the US.

 

This is why most captain put together an European and an American to work together on a park. As soon the European goes to bed, it is afternoon in America, the American takes over and works until 9-10ish, if you time it right, as soon as the European wakes up, the American is going to bed. or at least that's how I did my Wk3 park, and I do know ITM also planned some parks using this method. There is always a way around each disadvantage, you just gotta work it instead of blaming everyone. You also had access to the schedule from Wk1 to say anything and you didn't. Plus EVERYONE had the same disadvantage, yet everybody's park was finished in time.

 

Dirk, I never blamed anyone. nin and Shogo had some major flaws in addition to being great players that, if you noticed, I said I didn't regret drafting. I decided to vent on those flaws here with the hope that some public criticism might help them work on improving. 

 

 

But is it warranted? I don't think so. Odd how you firstly applaud them for their work then in the same sentence and paragraph, criticize them... It's almost as you want the last word in an argument. And to be honest, I don't think anybody on these forums cared if the park changed 5 times, sure its some interesting trivia, but did it change any outcome or did it add anything substantive to your anti-H2H7 rant? Not really, it's almost like you're personally calling them out which isn't very nice.

 

 It's called a deal-breaker. Either they loosen up on the limits or I don't captain again. Happens all the time in the world when setting rules or contracts.

 

With that attitude, I hope you don't come back then. You have to learn how to be flexible. I'm pretty sure Louis came to ALL of the four team BEFORE he decided to change the rules to have a 4 way playoff, either you objected or accepted it I don't know but all I know for sure is that there must be 3/4 captains that accepted it and tried to make the best park within the rule change. You bringing this up AFTER the fact that you lost sounds like an sore loser and a crybaby complaining about losing afterwards.

Agree with Louis. H2H is essentially at a sweet spot, long enough where people aren't dissuaded from joining due to a vacation or work or anything, but short enough that people don't quite lose interest by the end. That's not entirely true, there's a number of people in both of those camps, but those numbers imply that things would be worse if the contest were longer or shorter.

The deadlines are fine as-is. They are needed to push people to finish work. Get a group park done instead? No, there is not not enough motivation without a chance at a contest championship on the line.

 

I disagree that letting everyone on a team build would create the problems Louis mentioned. None of those issues should come up.

With my first experience, some of the parks grew slowly over time, but basically there was always a huge push for the final week to get the park finished. Add 2 weeks to each deadline and it'll result in the same thing, 4 weeks of easy-going construction and then the final big push for the last week. Plus, with 10 players, there are crazy blocks of time to build from the draft to every park... what was it, 5 or 6 weeks before round 1 was released. Realistically you could have 2 more parks nearly ready to go by then if the team is working even an hour a day per builder. More time isn't the issue, it's time management that's key.

 

And by the way, our team won the contest, and I don't think any of our parks were up to 200 in-game years.

More builders means more people allowed to slack off and more confusion. More builders usually means less quality IMO.

Long deadlines just do not work. Pro Tour 3 anyone? The longer a deadline is, the more interest is lost. H2H is already long enough that interest starts to dwindle, extending deadlines would add to this even more and make it catastrophic. Again, Pro Tour 3.

I can't agree with this, especially the first part. When talk about a team park, it doesn't mean anyone has to do 10%. It could be that 75% is done by 3 builders, with he other 5-6 doing little touches and polishing the park.

As for the second part, in a team contest, you have other people to motivate you and that expect you to do your part. Where as in a solo contest the only one that's going to motivate you is yourself and you have no one else relying on you to do the work. Plus, the reason for the interest drop was probably due to the change in the format, I mean when you expect to have 4 parks posted in 3-4 days then its pushed back a two weeks people are going to lose interest. Where if you have a set date, this wouldn't happen, at least to that extent. I also think that the presence of the extension in addition to the two week delay caused a lot of interest loss as well. If the parks were posted on Sunday night or even Monday, when people expected them to be, there going to be a lot more hype. As opposed to having no idea when the parks are going to be posted, people need a warning or something to get them excited, rather than just a post out of nowhere on a Thursday night.

Not saying you and the mods did a bad job, not at all, things come up and not everything goes as planned. But I think that changes could be made to extend peoples interest and dedication. Plus it wouldn't hurt if the big time members would be a little more active, obviously they have better things to do in the real world. But you can't expect people to have motivation when the only people reviewing their parks are people like me who people could care less about.

Sorry for all the critique and suggestions etc.. But there always room for improvement.

I definitely feel that 5 builders would be to many. To many cooks in the kitchen. And also very limited because of the you can only build with certain people once rule. 

Too many cooks in the kitchen is a real problem. I could foresee a TON of issues with 5+ players on a park... Stylistic clash? Check. Overdetailed to death? Check. Scheduling difficulties? Check. Mismatched planning? Check. Etc.

It's already difficult enough as it is for three players to work together cohesively, let alone 5.

And BSG makes a good point - HA won the contest and made some of the best parks of the contest, and none of them were over 200 years. This is a contest about deadlines and efficient teamwork. Overdetailed, 400 year parks that would more likely be unfinished than finished probably aren't a smart way to go about it...

This is what went through my head as i read this thread:

Damn this is such a kumba thread

Hey gforce disneypunk was finished

Hope i get a mvp nomination at least

Too many cooks too many cooks too many cooks tooo many coooooks etc forever

And BSG makes a good point - HA won the contest and made some of the best parks of the contest, and none of them were over 200 years. This is a contest about deadlines and efficient teamwork. Overdetailed, 400 year parks that would more likely be unfinished than finished probably aren't a smart way to go about it...

This was a good point!

 

Tenochtitlan - 130 years - 2 builders (Won)

Carreira De India - 112 years - 3 builders (Won)

Calico Canyon - 85 years - 3 builders (if it had 15 more years of work it might have won too)

#diamond heights - 120 years - 2 builders (Won)

Seven Wonders - 40 years - 3 builders (Won)

Asteroid Fields - 173 years - 3 builders (Won)

Liam's parks all win on concept and creativity, rather than parks like Raptor or PP that are based on execution. Sure the parks would be better if they had more time spent on them, but I don't think they need it, because that's not what those park are trying to do.

And I just said 200 because that's a round number that came to mind, it wasn't meant to be anytng more than that.

Liam's parks all win on concept and creativity, rather than parks like Raptor or PP that are based on execution. Sure the parks would be better if they had more time spent on them, but I don't think they need it, because that's not what those park are trying to do.

And I just said 200 because that's a round number that came to mind, it wasn't meant to be anytng more than that.

Glad you said it - concept and creativity is what counts in H2H, not "execution", even though I'd argue that some HA parks are pretty flawlessly executed. If you want to go for that picture perfect realism, do it in a design or spotlight. Go big on imagination and creativity for H2H.