H2H7 / [H2H7 Finals] - Barons vs Canes vs Atlas vs Laborers

Qu-Qu-Qu-Quadruple post!!!

Qu-Qu-Qu-Quadruple post!!!

You broke my chain of 5. 😡

Lotte world's technical quality is pretty undeniable. I would love to hear your enlightened reasoning as to why you think it isn't.

 

You wrote "undeniable (seriously it's not even a debate) high quality". Of course it's very strong from a technical standpoint, but sadly in RCT there is more than technique to a "high quality" park.

What are you going to do about it?

I never said new members shouldn't participate, I said they have no real right nor basis to critique harshly the same way older established members do when they literally have no experience.
Like ITM said, older members are harsh because it comes from a constructive background - they are giving critiques to help improve the screen. However I saw and read many critiques from new members who haven't shown any work saying things like "it's boring. Meh" or "it was disappointing" without saying why, or "it isn't that good" as if that's supposed to help as feedback.

Harsh critique has always been a part of NE but it comes from experience and a will to help improve work, not simply from a place of elitism in which "I'm gonna be a snob and judge you just for the sake of it".

In my reviews I express what I like and what I don't, what stood out and what didn't, how things could be better made or executed, etc. in an effort to give an honest but helpful review. if I don't like something very much I would try to explain my reasoning behind it instead of saying "meh" which is what it feels like a lot of these new members are doing.

 

So you would prefer new guys to write nothing instead of something? Great! Plus, the logic with "never accomplished anything" just stinks. Would that mean I can't say anything critical about any park because I don't have an accolade under my belt?

 

 

 

You wrote "undeniable (seriously it's not even a debate) high quality". Of course it's very strong from a technical standpoint, but sadly in RCT there is more than technique to a "high quality" park.

 

 

I didn't write that but I agree - there is definitely more than technical precision that makes a park great - which is why Lotte, despite being technically pristine, isn't in my top 5 from this H2H. Does that discredit it from being considered "high quality" though? It is undeniably high quality work, as was most of the parks from this H2H. You seem to be the only one who doesn't think so.

 

 

 

So you would prefer new guys to write nothing instead of something? Great! Plus, the logic with "never accomplished anything" just stinks. Would that mean I can't say anything critical about any park because I don't have an accolade under my belt?

 

That's a slippery slope fallacy and a false dichotomy - why is it all or nothing? It's not. I would prefer new guys write helpful feedback instead of "it sucks. next", which is what some of these reviews have been. And no, you can definitely be critical in your reviews. But back it up with statements and reasons and other justifications instead of writing off and discrediting all the work that was put into something that you couldn't achieve yourself. 

 

What this reminds me of is amateur art and music critics writing scathing reviews of shows and music despite not having any background or knowledge that legitimizes that opinion. But even in that case, at least their reviews are justified by logic and explanation instead of "whatever it was boring". 

 

and we all know that NE is an elitist place. Ever since NE began it was about proving yourself. So that logic "never accomplished anything" is right at home here. 

Yes, this place always been elitist. But you know what? The H2H votes are not. They aren't, because everyone is able to vote. So if someone votes for Park A, because he didn't like Park B he shouldn't be forced to write a long review to the park if he doesn't want to. And when it comes to normal submissions those reviews don't mean anything, because the accolade panelists ultimately decide where a park lands. Plus, how in the world is a completely new player supposed to write helpful feedback to an H2H park?

 

I don't say this H2H sucked. I do say however, that it wasn't as good as the last one, despite the higher technical level that developed over the last years. Additionally, the standards for accolades apparently didn't grow over the last years, despite the aforementioned rise in technical ability around the board.

Plus, how in the world is a completely new player supposed to write helpful feedback to an H2H park?

 

By drawing on real world schema. Just because someone isn't at the same level of RCT play as some of these H2H builders doesn't mean they can't draw from real world experience. This site is full of architecture students and coaster enthusiasts, and both sets have a LOT of experience that can be useful to crafting parks, and for critiquing them.

Ok, I know I don't have a name around here and I am the farthest thing from an "elite" player. I just couldn't resist adding my two cents here.

 

I honestly think that you guys agree, Version1 and AvanineCommuter (and please correct me if I didn't understand your meanings), and that the argument stems from the ways the two arguments are worded.

 

As far as I could tell, AC isn't saying that newer members shouldn't critique established players work; it's not really about newer members at all, but unfortunately that was what stuck in this argument. "it sucks, next" reviews aren't helpful or necessary from anybody, whether they have no work on this site or are the greatest RCT builder ever.Those who have been around this site for a while know this (and I think a lot of us greenhorns too), and almost all reviews from established members critique what they didn't like, but either recommend changes (if unfinished) or also include things they did like and give as balanced a view as possible. 

 

Newer members are certainly more prone to unhelpful reviews, but they certainly can and do provide fair and helpful reviews as well. It doesn't take an RCT master to appreciate RCT work, nor does it take one to state respectfully and constructively what elements didn't appeal to them. Different styles of play appeal to different people; this is obvious in the frequent disparity in accolade panel votes, and it's no different with newer players.

TL;DR Newer players aren't the problem, it's unhelpful and curt reviews that aren't justified from anybody, but may be more likely from newer players who haven't been on the other side, being criticized rather than the critic.

 

Sorry for the rambling style of this post, I am dead tired but in a writing type of mood. I hope I didn't misconstrue the above discussion, and maybe when I'm not asleep at the keyboard I'll revise it.

My interpretation of this discussion is we all said similar things and then the people who thought it might have applied to them got defensive. If you got defensive about the posts, maybe that means something? Idk , think about it

Exactly.

Goes for getting defensive on the internet in general.

Someone please link to my post from the end of last H2H, same stuff entirely. 

so you're requitting turtle?

I'm still quite suprised how Paradise Pier got such a low panelist score compared to other H2H parks of similar or worse quality. There's no way Paradise Pier deserves only a 4% higher score than say Universal studios, the two aren't even close (I'll take it though ).

I'm still quite suprised how Paradise Pier got such a low panelist score compared to other H2H parks of similar or worse quality. There's no way Paradise Pier deserves a 4% higher score than say Universal studios, the two aren't even close (I'll take it though ).

Anti-Kumba bias. Everyone is still jelly over his Parkmaker of the decade award.

Idk, i think paradise pier is technically of exceptional quality but didnt impress me. There are a lot of parks that i feel the need to constantly revisit or that i remember being really excited about when released, and pp just isnt one. I think maybe it didnt innovate or do anything new was the problem

Paradise Pier still holds up imo

I hope they finish Fantasy Park With Strong Narrative some day.