H2H7 / [H2H7 Finals] - Barons vs Canes vs Atlas vs Laborers

Sephiroth, I totally agree, but I think there's some saving grace coming. Namely, OpenRCT2. Amazing things are being accomplished now by hacking the game way beyond it's original intention. But with the source code being reverse engineered, perhaps someday we won't have to do track merges because we'll finally be able to make custom track elements. Maybe custom flat rides become more feasible to make larger than 4 tiles wide. Maybe a copy/paste function is introduced to make arrays of complex architecture that repeats anyways. I think this might be one of the last competitions we see that takes so much effort to manipulate the game to do things it wasn't designed for, because we are nearing a point where we can just redesign the game instead.

There's an interesting correlation between the amount of constructive criticism/feedback and the members giving them. Those of us that sign onto H2H, and really those of us that release any form of park/screen at NE, understand that there's a decent amount of criticism to face; hell, plenty of the older members were reared on a much harsher NE than today, when it was the established members that were the harshest, rather than the relatively new inexperienced players. NE today is generally quite supportive of work, and H2H7 wasn't an exception to this.

 

However, it's definitely frustrating for any builder to deal with pure criticism, of which there was a fair amount of this season. Looking at the responses, it's easier to find better, more in-depth feedback from more established members; they understand the time crunch and evaluate both the work presented and the execution at hand. On the other side, there's then a series of responses, usually from newer non-competing members, stating simply how a park is bad or a matchup is disappointing. Yes, we all know that the stakes are high and that the feedback/results reflect that, but it's incredibly disrespectful to those of us that attempt to keep the community going through releases to shrug off our efforts simply as disappointing.

 

However, at the end of the day, it's not all of NE that's the issue; it's simply a small, yet vocal, minority that calls for the utmost, and somewhat unrealistic, standard.

If I'm not mistaken, Heaven's Atlas won the competition with on average spending about the least amount of time per park. It's just that there is a feeling going around (mainly with some builders) that every park has to be overdetailed/overhacked to look good. A lot of people will however tell you that that is absolutely not true. 

I think this is the recipe for success in H2H. Not killing yourselves to finish every park. Because that leads to burnt out players and poor team chemistry.

 

I think it's roughly 40% building quickly/being satisfied without overdoing things, 40% ideas and creativity, 20% talent. I think we (the Rat Pack) could've easily been in contention, but we were somewhat lacking in great park ideas. Without overdoing it, Heaven's Atlas had great park ideas and solid talent which won them the contest. I remember seeing the "Page 1: Tenochtitlan" in Week 1 and thinking, "That is a fantastic idea, an actual atlas!" And they ended up winning. 

Being a golden oldie, I can say that this mentality of 'We're too harsh and getting harsher' is complete bullshit.

 

In one topic, we're talking about people being too harsh. In the other topic, we're talking about too many parks getting too high of a rating. Welcome to NE folks.

I think the complaint was people who aren't worthy of being harsh are being harsh as opposed. Years and years ago, I wouldn't dream of being harsh, and I would accept having harsh comments thrown my way. Now I am happy to be harsh, because I have grown as a member and as a player and can rightfully be harsh, but at the same time we have new members, who aren't all that great at RCT and haven't been a member for long being harsh, which I do think is bad.

If you don't got the rap, shut yo trap.

I totally agree. I love constructive critique and feedback because that's the only real way to improve your work. But when you hear completely unconstructive critiques and complaints from members who haven't released anything and have nothing to show for themselves, it's more than just a little annoying.

Established members and people with releases have earned the right to be harsh because they know what they are talking about. People who haven't done shit yet complain a round was disappointing or a park was shitty when the park makers spent long hours making it is not only disrespectful but also pure elitism for the sake of elitism.

I'm all for harsh critiques coming from respected members who have a good working knowledge of RCT - this is NE after all - but I'm all against harsh critiques coming from lurkers who haven't released anything substantial.

Just because you're a member of an "elite" site doesn't mean you're elite. You have to earn your title.

But when you hear completely unconstructive critiques and complaints from members who haven't released anything and have nothing to show for themselves, it's more than just a little annoying.

 

Stop that shit.

If you want more reviews from highly respected members tell them to make reviews. Or just tell newer memebrs not to make reviews, or better yet lead my example. There are tons of highly established members who didn't review any parks, sure they have better things to do, but new members are never going to learn how to make good critisims if the established members don't lead. Obviously I'm not taking about everyone, but there are definitely more than a few members who could do a better job of reviewing work.

Hey, I figured I'd join in on this conversation. I'm hoping I don't fall into the category of:

 

people who aren't worthy of being harsh are being harsh

Or

 

 

but I'm all against harsh critiques coming from lurkers who haven't released anything substantial.

 

I'm trying to be more a part of the community and I am not trying to annoy anyone. I think I share G Force's sentiment that I know I am not "elite" but I wanted to offer park reviews in H2H because I wanted to be a part of the competition. I apologize if I fit in that category, I know I have been harsh at times, and it's not intentional. I'm not trying to be harsh to try and look like a "big dog".

 

Critical comments from respected members come from experience, and a desire to constructively help other's improve their work. Critical comments from newer, un-established members seem to express a similar desire-- to see better work-- but they are frequently ungrounded, lack constructive elements, or sound a lot more directly like "I don't like this, make it better"

Newer members shouldn't be afraid to be critical, as log as they draw on their own skills to provide constructive solutions. Everyone has something to offer, and just because someone is new to the site, doesn't mean they don't have real-world schema that can be beneficial to others.

One of the best styles of reviews from NE in my opinion were the +/- reviews. It's balanced, complimentary, yet  they included constructive criticism. Any member, new or old, is safe to come from that angle, plus the builders appreciate the comments a lot more. And those reviews from what I remember generally came from long time members of the community. I endeavoured to style my reviews in the same manner, since I'm still an NE greenhorn.

^absolutely agree. Those comments truly help the most.

Ok so my post made a lot more fuss than I thought it would, sorry about that. I'm glad most of you got what I'm trying to say. The only thing I would clear up is the following: While I read a lot of poor quality "reviews" (trolling), there were also a lot of high quality reviews too, positive and negative, that I had absolutely no problem with. It's just that I'd look at parks like Lotte World and be blown away by the undeniable (seriously it's not even a debate) high quality, and then read a bunch of people saying how they were "disappointed". IMO that kind of post is a load of horse hockey, and that kind of flagrantly negative, immature, arrogant, and flippant attitude is what really frosted my derrière. I didn't care if they were new or old members. Troll reviews are troll reviews. There was certain member who's been here a long time that I was ready to chuck out a window due to their non-stop negativity to anything and everything, but enough about that. A lot of people here are really cool, just irritating how a loudmouthed few could rip two clearly amazing parks to pieces regularly.

 

Again I should stress that the other part of my post is a huge thank you to all the amazing people the put on this contest and built all the amazing parks. Thank you.

Critical comments from respected members come from experience, and a desire to constructively help other's improve their work. Critical comments from newer, un-established members seem to express a similar desire-- to see better work-- but they are frequently ungrounded, lack constructive elements, or sound a lot more directly like "I don't like this, make it better"
Newer members shouldn't be afraid to be critical, as log as they draw on their own skills to provide constructive solutions. Everyone has something to offer, and just because someone is new to the site, doesn't mean they don't have real-world schema that can be beneficial to others.

One of the best styles of reviews from NE in my opinion were the +/- reviews. It's balanced, complimentary, yet  they included constructive criticism. Any member, new or old, is safe to come from that angle, plus the builders appreciate the comments a lot more. And those reviews from what I remember generally came from long time members of the community. I endeavoured to style my reviews in the same manner, since I'm still an NE greenhorn.

I totaly 120% with you. The +/- gives a good overview without a big Text who can be sometimes really anoying. I am for comments from members who havent Release anything or New members. With them the community is much bigger. I know somethinglike: "thats look like my toe, rebuild it" is a Bad comment for builders but thats the game everybody do that sometimes with sacastic comments. Also i think its a good comment from ottersalad that he want to be a part of NE and thats great. If not NE would slowly die and yeah with slowly i mean slowly. So come one give them a Chance.

It's just that I'd look at parks like Lotte World and be blown away by the undeniable (seriously it's not even a debate) high quality, and then read a bunch of people saying how they were "disappointed".

 

Lol, yes it is deniable

 
Stop that shit.

What are you going to do about it?

I never said new members shouldn't participate, I said they have no real right nor basis to critique harshly the same way older established members do when they literally have no experience.
Like ITM said, older members are harsh because it comes from a constructive background - they are giving critiques to help improve the screen. However I saw and read many critiques from new members who haven't shown any work saying things like "it's boring. Meh" or "it was disappointing" without saying why, or "it isn't that good" as if that's supposed to help as feedback.

Harsh critique has always been a part of NE but it comes from experience and a will to help improve work, not simply from a place of elitism in which "I'm gonna be a snob and judge you just for the sake of it".

In my reviews I express what I like and what I don't, what stood out and what didn't, how things could be better made or executed, etc. in an effort to give an honest but helpful review. if I don't like something very much I would try to explain my reasoning behind it instead of saying "meh" which is what it feels like a lot of these new members are doing.

 
Lol, yes it is deniable

Lotte world's technical quality is pretty undeniable. I would love to hear your enlightened reasoning as to why you think it isn't.

Hey, I figured I'd join in on this conversation. I'm hoping I don't fall into the category of:
 
Or
 
 
 
I'm trying to be more a part of the community and I am not trying to annoy anyone. I think I share G Force's sentiment that I know I am not "elite" but I wanted to offer park reviews in H2H because I wanted to be a part of the competition. I apologize if I fit in that category, I know I have been harsh at times, and it's not intentional. I'm not trying to be harsh to try and look like a "big dog".
 

You don't fall in that category because your reviews aren't one word complaints or write offs of the parks being reviewed, unlike some of these other new players. The concern isn't with new members reviewing parks, it's with new members acting elite and acting high and mighty with their unsupport opinions. It's almost as if they think they DESERVE to see "better" parks and that we park makers should feel obligated to serve their idiotic expectations. I for one am annoyed when someone who has nothing to show says "meh it's boring. Next" to all the great work from this H2H.

If you want more reviews from highly respected members tell them to make reviews. Or just tell newer memebrs not to make reviews, or better yet lead my example. There are tons of highly established members who didn't review any parks, sure they have better things to do, but new members are never going to learn how to make good critisims if the established members don't lead. Obviously I'm not taking about everyone, but there are definitely more than a few members who could do a better job of reviewing work.

I agree, since the first round I've been calling for more people to be reviewing parks. I can name a ton of established members who seemed to be completely missing from any forum activity during the duration of the competition... Now I don't know their reasons so I can't really judge, but I do agree that increased participation in reviews from established members are very very valuable and we can always use more of it.