H2H7 / [H2H7 Round 3 Match 1] - Itallian Stallions vs Manual Laborers
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10-May 15
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Faas
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Meizhou Rising:
Really impressive from a technical and skill point of view. These parks are, however, a bit too busy in my opinion. I get why you want to show as much as possible on one map, but give me some room to breathe. I loved the joke with the rowing boat though, well done. I didn't care much for the launched roller coaster, the other coasters were very good.
The Hanging Gardens of Babylon:
This is my favourite of the two, perfect balance of busy parts and parts where I can actually see what is going on. The coaster was seriously impressive, as was the log flume and the hanging gardens area, I haven't seen that being done on such a high standard yet! The entrance area was pretty cool as well, loved the peeps queuing for the show (which show though?). The architecture here was a bit more uninspired and blend but did its job. Great match up!
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Fisch
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On first impression I'd have probably voted for Meizhou Rising.Both parks are at a very(!) high level and I've been trying to compare the execution of the main idea, the things that really stand out, and some parkmaking flaws to form a better opinion.The reason why at first I was leaning to the Asian park was that I thought the execution of the park idea and the big things of the themes was better in it compared to the Stallions' park.I really liked the Babylon park idea itself, and I had even suggested a tower of Babel in my team's idea pool at the start of the season. But I'm honestly a bit disappointed by the adaptions of the famous Ishtar gate and the actual tower of Babylon. I mean yes, when you google the tower, the pictures mostly show a pyramid-esque structure like in this park. But when people think of the tower of Babel they instantly think of how it was depicted on the famous Tower of Babel painting that's also on the front cover of the Civilization game series. I'm talking about the upward spiralling helix under construction tower. It's clear that you drew inspiration from that too as the crane on your tower suggests. But it completely misses that upward helix part in the architecture that makes it so special. Like this it could be any under construction tower/pyramid in my opinion when it has such a distinct feature that's simply left out.The Ishtar Gate then is just not impressive enough as a whole. It doesn't look like you put a lot of thought into it or its strategic placement when it could've/SHOULD've been another main feature of the park. With the little square behind it you were trying to emphasize that it leads to a representative square and is important in its meaning. But the whole aspect of its strategic placement in front of a square, it being in a historically and architecturally important position and it looking majestic in size, details, and color seems way underrepresented. This could've easily been the big entrance gate to the park or just to the area (put it in front of a bridge that goes over the river). For some reason that is absolutely unclear to me no one seems to build linear axissymmetrical boulevards between big gates and a main square/forum with a temple/palace at it. It's the easiest thing to do, and it's often architecturally/historically correct in the old European/Persian civilizations. Many of these civilizations built their new cities with orthogonal grid systems (not so important) and had some main linear roads that connected the gate to the religious, economic, and political city center (VERY IMPORTANT)(can be all 3 in 1). It makes a lot of sense, is stylistically nice and it gives a deeper meaning to the streets and stops the building placement from looking random and unplanned.Lastly I'm not impressed by the overall park layout. I think it'd have been a lot nicer if the entrance of a park named "Hanging Gardens of Babylon" had actually been in the Hanging Gardens area. Additionally that way you wouldn't have the problem of the front being pretty busy with the biggest rides and the back being very calm in comparison. Of course it's entirely allowed to put the big stuff in the front, and the more quaint stuff in the back. But I'm sure everyone agrees that in order to impress someone you wanna keep getting bigger instead of going out all guns blazing and lacking fire power at the end. This is not to say that I didn't like the Hanging Gardens area. In terms of technical RCT skills it was the best area in the park for me. It was truly beautiful, it's simply that I was looking for something really big and exciting there after the entrance area had been so busy. If you had just turned the park around (Gardens -> River -> Ishtar Gate -> City -> Tower) I think the overall park planning would've instantly been a lot better.So those were kind of my 3 main concerns with the Babylon park, which made me move away from it at first. I wasn't really looking at pure architectural or technical rct skill that much. In these RCT times the technical skill level is so high, and the predominance of atmospherically dead hyper detailed realism in the community is so strong that I was trying to just go for what execution of the concept I appreciated more.In the Asian park I simply didn't feel I'd have structured it much differently in planning if I was to build something like it. Just as in Babylon the technical level is great, there are some main ideas to bring over the theme and they're all done well. That was kind of my point, the main things that make up the theme are incorporated into the park layout and the overall planning a lot better in my opinion than in Babylon. The land spikes were large enough to emphasize the idea behind them. The colors created a really, like Dave said, menacing atmosphere, which seemed very much intentional. And the wrecks and underwater ruins were absolutely brilliant. The manual laborers have really raised the bar when it comes to making ruins/wrecks in rct. Some of the best ever for me.But the more I looked at it the more I was fighting my appreciation of what in parts looked like copies of Lijiang archy and the park the very same team had released just two weeks before. I loved Bermuda, and I'm still fond of the boats and wrecks in this park as well. But thinking about it again and again the similarities to Lijiang and Bermuda brought down the creativity level I originally saw in this park by a lot. I mean I can understand how two people wanted to work on a lost island type park but they had very different ideas for it...so eventually you guys ended up making two parks with that theme. I don't blame you but I think it's practically impossible for this park to not have been influenced by the earlier park (or the other way around). The ideas are amazing(!!) but I can't stop feeling I'm looking at a one trick pony in a way (no offense).So at this point I wasn't sure anymore for whom to vote because 2 of the 3 main things that I relate to Babylon (the tower and the Ishtar gate) weren't as good as I was hoping or not strategically showcased well enough. On the other hand the initial sense of creativity I saw in the Manual Laborers' didn't last long enough for me. It just seemed to reuse old ideas too much without adding many new things. I swear I laughed out loud when I saw version1's ship. But then I realized I also found the Life of Pi and Jack Sparrow references in Bermuda to be pretty funny and I felt cheated for being fed the same joke thrice lol.I ended up basing my decision on the little things and the technical execution (this is really fine margins for me, it's a very close match).Both parks are architecturally very pleasing, and have great use of textures and color although in a very different sense.- I loved the Hanging Gardens. The atmosphere, the foliage, the colors were sublime! Really special stuff and good layout of the area too. It instantly feels grand and integral to the theme, which is what the tower and the gate should've felt like too.- I really loved the docks in Meizhou. Just beautifully crafted, especially the little draw bridge is wonderful (wanted to put one in the India park but time constraints)- Nebuchadnezzar's palace is brilliant. The crenelation on the roof was awesome as was the overall use of color. I can't believe this type of crenelation isn't done more often. It's perfect- I showed a friend a video of that Insanity ride on the Stratosphere Tower in Las Vegas just yesterday and thought it was very funny to see something similar in Meizhou. It looked great and is certainly an awesome use of this hack.- For some reason I really liked that one fountain on the city side nearby the river in Babylon. Beautiful really. The perfect small fountain perhaps?- The underwater life in the Laborers' park is absolutely brilliant. It looks breathtaking really!...nothing more to say- One of the things I loved most about Babylon was the Gilgamesh ride. Great themeing, great idea, great layout and execution. I think it's my favorite smaller ride in this match, perhaps even in this H2H.- awesome backwards section and backwards loop in that adventure coaster in Meizhou. This isn't done often enough in parks I thinkmain rides:- I thought the best coaster of the matchup was actually Ishtar. I liked the layout a lot although the interaction with the path and themeing wasn't done as well as it could've been I thought. For example the underground helix after the loop is hidden really...it's nice for the coaster layout but when you plan these things and think of the themeing you should match the themeing to the ride and not hide it without purpose in my opinion. Also that turn near the corner of the map could've definitely been visible from the open side of the tower. That'd have been some good interaction. Instead it's again hidden without much of a plan. But I still thought it was a great coaster overall and was very smooth with good flow.- I also liked the water ride in Babylon more than the one in Meizhou. It was very well done although the return to the station seemed really forced in my opinion. The one in Meizhou had incredible themeing but I didn't really think that the ride had enough of a purpose. It could've been a boat ride just as well because there really wasn't much river rapids-esque stuff about it I thought.-> In the end with Babylon edging the rides for me and after looking at both parks for quite a while I started thinking that despite not being satisfied by the execution of the tower and the gate, a lot more historical research and therefore depth went into the Babylon park. The Asian park is deep too, but as I said, the reoccurance of the ideas we saw in the last round took away from the depth of the concept. But what is more I think you should've provided info as to what the rides stand for. The thing that makes the Babylon park seem deep is that all the rides tell a story. I noticed and appreciated that and I think it's very important. The stories the rides tell aren't made up, they are connected to the actual legends that exist around Babylon. You can see from the execution that the builders really studied these stories and the background info in depth to come up with these rides. I'm not saying that this is not the case for Meizhou or that real legends are better than made up ones. Infact I really appreciate rides telling made up stories if the stories are well thought out. But if they do then you need to add background info (readme?). Or if the rides tell real stories then you should've been aware that most likely no one in Europe or America will know about them and therefore won't be able to identify them.I vote The Hanging Gardens -
5dave
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^Yeah, let's just hope the last matchup gets as much recognition as the first two, though
"MFG" -
Liampie
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Great match! I'll do a pros/cons review.
The Hanging Gardens of Babylon
+ I like the theme, can't go wrong with Babylon or other ancient settings
+ I actually liked the tower, and it did remind of Bruegel's version.
+ The gardens were fantastic, best part of the map. The waterfalls from the towers (onto the log flum!), trees growing through roofs, the amazing foliage mix full of colour and contrast, the overall quaint atmosphere... It's a bit like the hanging gardens area in The Atlantean Ark, but much better.
+ The palace of Nebuchadnezzar was also beautiful. The tower reminded me of Fata Morgana in the Efteling.
+ Main coaster was pretty good, I liked it. But why was there 4d track hacked into the arrow track? Why the fuck was that necessary? Not a con, just confusing to me.
+ I like the architecture in this park in general, very clean with lots of variety. Made the park look so pleasant!
+ Right balance between little things and larger structures.
- Why call the map The Hanging Gardens if the actual gardens make up only 1/3 of the map? It wasn't the centerpiece.
- The park was full of chronological and geographical errors. Cannons? Archeologists in trucks? A museum? Roman language and Circus Maximus? A fucking cinema? The list goes on...
- In places the park seemed undecided whether it wants to be Babylon with theme park rides or a theme park with a Babylon theme.
Despite the logical flaws I enjoyed this map a lot. It's just beautiful! 75%LijiangMeizhou Rising
+ Park looks REALLY spectacular at first. The towers in the sea are awesome, remind me of that tower in H2H6's Lost Samurai park but in RCT2.
+ There's a lot going on. Three large coasters! And kudos for the switchback coaster, you don't see those often anymore.
+ The harbour area was great, not as overbearing as the rest of the map. The drawbridge was cool.
- As big and content-filled the park looked as first, a closer inspection was quite unrewarding. PoE syndrome: lots of detail, but not as much content. Where were the little things to justify the architectural chaos?
- I didn't care much for the B&M diver or the Vekoma suspended. And pink for the B&M? Why!?
- I thought the landscaping was quite poor
- Architecture was mostly quite good in this park. But it was obviously a Lijiang rip. One building was almost copied, the rest was elements and tricks rearranged into new buildings... I'll illustrate it.
- Apart from lacking originality, I thought the Lijiang inspiration brought the park down because the 'Lijiang China' clashed with the 'other China', or the cliche China theme of red and yellows and dragon references. There was no focus.
- Speaking of focus, what am I looking at, apart from a cool looking pile of Chinese buildings and rocks? I don't really get the concept. There was no read me and the park didn't try to tell me much apart from the opening message and some sunken buildings.
More cons than pros, but not every pro/con has the same weight. Of course overall this is still a great effort. 70% -
RCTER2 Offline
^Yeah, let's just hope the last matchup gets as much recognition as the first two, though
"MFG"We still have round4 match1.
- Architecture was mostly quite good in this park. But it was obviously a Lijiang rip. One building was almost copied, the rest was elements and tricks rearranged into new buildings... I'll illustrate it.
Yes I do remeber of Lijiang when seeing this park.
Yesterday when I first see the screenshot I thought it's a macro version of "China rising" and when I see it in game I thought it's a flood version of Lijiang. Though it's still very high quality and impressive.
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Steve
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Not a big of either of these to be honest. While they are very well done, just didn't impress me. Both seemed to be rehashed from parks of the past. It's beyond me why anyone would even TOUCH the Babylon theme after SA did it so spectacularly. However, Stallions, you did a pretty decent job here and still a park to be proud of none the less. I really liked the Arrow coaster (but you know you forgot the H in the sign out front right? Unless I'm missing something. First thing you see in the park is spelt wrong...), and my absolute favorite thing was the row boats dark ride in the back of the park -- genius. Wasn't a big fan of the hanging gardens at all actually. From afar they look impressive but up close they seem messy to me. Definitely not bad, but could have used more refinement I think. The log flume was a nice touch though, and I liked the cutaways to see inside it and other areas of the park too. I think I might give this park the edge this round, regardless.
Laborers, what are you doing? While this park is technically fairly impressive, Christ is it a mess. So much going on and so much detail on the architecture for no reason. Definitely agree with Liam on pretty much all of his points. Great concept I think, and you had some high points (switchback coaster was great!), but it just didn't work for me in the end. I appreciate all the detail that went into the underwater theming, however. That must've been a bitch. Also, though, you somehow managed to make the most boring rapids ride ever. Apologies if this all sounds cynical, despite what I think this is by no means a bad park, and it seems like everyone else is digging it so what do I know? Hahah. Either way, you managed to dish out a park to put up a fight, and that's all you can ask for in this contest.
Well done to both teams!
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trav
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It's beyond me why anyone would even TOUCH the Babylon theme after SA did it so spectacularly.
I really hope that no one is thinking this seriously, seeing as that was released 12 years ago...
I like the reviews so far though guys, some nice in depth ones.
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AvanineCommuter
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The Hanging Gardens of Babylon -
Pros:
- Really loved Ishtar, I think it is one of the better rollercoasters this season to be honest. Beautiful layout and I like the Lochness inspiration.
- Gilgamesh's Journey is awesomely done! The sculptures and wall pieces were great.
- Trireme is well done as well, beautiful swinging ship.
- The crane on the tower is really beautifully done. Love the construction site.
- Overall the rides were just pretty great, I think it was the strength of the park.
Cons:-Ishtar sign was mispelled as ISTAR...-Ishtar gate was a big misstep. It is an iconic part of the Babylon story and it was just poorly made overall.-Tower of Babel was beautiful but you missed a big trick with deciding not to incorporate the spiral, which is a core element of the tower. Far from a good representation of the actual Tower of Babel. Beautiful nonetheless.-The gardens itself was nice and pretty but that's it. It lacked the scale and monumental quality associated with the real hanging gardens. Too small and lacking in scope.-really disliked that diagonal bridge in the center of the park.-the layout of the park pushed some really good ideas like Gilgamesh and the gladiator-type fighting ring to the edges of the park while filling the center with mediocre architecture. Strange composition overall and would have preferred more focus on the rides which really imo was the strong point of the park.Overall it was a solid effort but I was not a huge fan of this park. Architecturally it was lacking in my opinion, was conceptually unoriginal (been done and done better imo), and brought nothing new to the table. Also, what many people have pointed out already, it rode the line between amusement park and fantasy park, and that itself was really strange.
65%
Meizhou Rising
Pros:-LOVED the architecture overall. Beautiful, complex, interesting, engaging composition, varied heights, fantastical elements, great colors, etc. You guys did bring some new shapes and combinations which was appreciated.- Great concept combining a typical Chinese-theme with a unique storyline of a rising sea-level fantasy world. Unique and original, which is tops in my book.- Loved the little bridges and cliffs, lots of detail to see.- Yuji was my favorite coaster.- Huashan Edge was great, it's good to see a hacked coaster as we've been lacking in those recently.-Sunken city was a great idea and well executedCons:- The Dive coaster... why even bother with such a boring type when you're in a fantasy park? It was slow and plodding, uninteresting, and too "realistic" for a park that is as fantastical as this. That said, it was a good layout for a dive coaster. Just out of place in this park IMO.- Slightly messy overall but that's to be expected with as much content as you've produced.- Architecturally it did feel slightly reductive with too much of it resembling Lijiang. I guess that was just the pinnacle of the generic Chinese-themed architecture trope.- Yuji's supports should've stood out a bit more. The brown blended too much and so it didn't stand out, which is a shame because they were very interesting in how they hung from the cliffside.- River rapids was boring.- Landscaping was not the best. Needs more finesse.80%Overall this was no contest. I'm actually surprised that so many are thinking this was a close matchup, to me it was overwhelmingly in favor of Meizhou Rising. The level of craft, interest, originality, uniqueness, architecture, roller coasters, etc. was all better in Meizhou, despite having some missteps itself. -
AvanineCommuter
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Also, what about the idea to post the next round as soon as it reached 15 reviews? 15 is quite a lot.
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Liampie
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How dare you call Lijiang generic. I'll disinherit you as one of the Heaven's Kitchen heirs.
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Kumba
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15 is not too much to ask. Back in the day, iris would not post a new NE Spotlight until the last had at least 3 pages of feedback. Unfortunately, Monday is my most busy day, so I doubt I'll be able to contribute a solid review to this match-up.
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Ling
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Really surprised at how polarized some of these views are. At least all of the rounds have been close, but it would be pretty awesome if the "most likely to go 0-5" team went up 3-0 in the first three rounds.
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Louis!
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Also, what about the idea to post the next round as soon as it reached 15 reviews? 15 is quite a lot.
Already at 16.
How is 15 too much
We asked for 15, we've received more than 15. Had we not asked for any, how many would we have? 5? 6? -
AvanineCommuter
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How dare you call Lijiang generic. I'll disinherit you as one of the Heaven's Kitchen heirs.
But it's the pinnacle.
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AvanineCommuter
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Already at 16.
How is 15 too much
We asked for 15, we've received more than 15. Had we not asked for any, how many would we have? 5? 6?I didn't say 15 was too much, I said 15 is a lot and we should post the next round when we hit 15. As in post it now.
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turbin3
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Babylon:
+ very nice entrance area with the blue gate and the overall architecture
+ Tower of babel, maybe a bit to big
+ Trireme flatride looks great
+ foliage
+ good atmosphere
- log flume maybe too long
- misspelled Ist(h)ar sign
- and I agree with Liampie: not sure if Babylon themed park or theme park in Babylon
Meizhou:
+ landscaping
+ interaction of the coasters with landscaping / buildings
+ many details to explore
+ nice custom flatrides
- sometimes it was hard to focus on something, I think caused by the colours
- architecture maybe to repetitive
(- fire burning underwater
)Overall I go with Meizhou Rising!
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Fisch
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My matchup got like 2 reviews before the end of the voting last round...I don't think the voters should rest on their laurels just yet. I'm not trying to get everyone to revisit the last round (although you can of course). Just in general I don't think this should be viewed as a "punishment", it should be the norm that every matchup gets easily 20+ reviews when there are 50 voters or more. It was honestly ridiculous how few reviews the LL parks got.
That said I don't wanna start a new discussion that's not actually connected to the parks at hand but I had to put that out there. So keep the reviews coming people.
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