Pro Tour 4 / Pro Tour 4 Rules & Regulations

I feel like simply judging by the pages and inviting people to join the "Pro" Tour reeks of more elitism than any prelim system could exude; who's to say that the admins alone can just arbitrarily choose who they find fitting? The prelims at least offer the opportunity of evening the playing ground slightly, allowing players to be judged more objectively than just looking at someone's parkmaker page and judging from there. I'm sure that even more people will feel slighted if admins and the "elites" simply chose who they liked rather than offering chances to prove oneself. The prelim rounds offer people the chance to prove themselves with a set objective for judging and a scale to be judged upon; simply choosing players based on their past released works (not counting the highest-scoring accolades) would be open to too much personal interpretation and will leave more people out than any prelim round.

Maybe you should ask Louis! how he gathered those Elite Park Maker and what exactly does "Elite Park Maker" mean on this site.

I now understand what you're saying. "I released & contributed on a couple of accolades and at their current time, that was considered my best work" Why should I go through prelims and not automatically be listed as an Elite Park Maker"

Maybe it has something to do with always being relevant and the consistency of your work. I mean just because you win a gold medal back in 1996 Olympics, doesn't mean in 2016 you should still be considered an elite athlete. Just do prelims and prove them that you're still current and that you can score an 80%. If you're truly an elite park maker, doing these prelims shouldn't be no big deal.

The way I see it zburns, is that this is giving me a drive to get into the main competition. The builds that the qualifiers require are really not that difficult or time-consuming, as I've already made a good bit of progress on an entry for one of them.

If I do manage to finish and get to go against the "elite" few, consider my entry (or two) a warning for what I'm capable of, as you haven't seen something like this from me yet. I do hope that the rest of the community views this the same way, though I know that is false, ahaha. Ah well, in my view this is my personal "punishment" for never having completed anything substantial outside of contests, but that's soon to change.

Oh ho ho, is Kyle "Nin" threatening to finish a park? Is this all a scheme to get him to finally finish something?!


Details will follow...

Ok zburns, you're not being a douche so I won't be too much of an asshole here.

First, please stop qualifying everything you say. Things like "I don't mean to be negative... I don't want to stir the pot..." etc. etc. You have a negative opinion of this contest and you're creating discussion and stirring the pot. Let's just accept that and move on. If you don't want people responding to you, take it to the PMs.

I just have to ask, what exactly are you kicking against here? You keep throwing around the word elitism like it's this nasty little thing at the heart of this event. I won't say you don't understand the point of the contest, you've been around long enough to be aware of it, but I will call you out on your willful ignoring of the fact that the contest structure is merely designed to sort of be a two in one deal. Now, I'll agree that by this point the prelim idea is so watered down that anyone who has even a paltry interest and decent skill in the final round can get in but that's just the point (at least that's how I understand the current system is supposed work. if it doesn't, that's certainly a big flaw). But IF it's easy to get in then why kick against it at all? Sure, you may argue that it's superfluous but the way I see it, it's a mini contest open to anyone that shouldn't have too much of a time commitment associated with it in rapid fire rounds. And one benefit I see is that it'll be a pretty realistic list of final entrants since hopefully the prelims build a bit of investment in people who "earned" their way in. There are plenty of players, old and new, who can argue they deserve an automatic spot but whether or not they do is such a subjective thing, a minimal little mini contest isn't that bad of a substitute to giving a large number of people a free pass. If they don't want to participate then it's obvious they weren't committed enough to finish a 90x90 in 2 months. If they get in but don't submit a final entry, at least they were engaged in the community for the prelims.

I would have preferred a High Rollers but to be honest a Pro Tour does make sense. My gut says that the admins probably went for a PT over High Rollers purely because of the prelims. Just think for a second if it was High Rollers type contest right now. You wouldn't have anything negative to say, you'd download the bench and not finish an entry just like the rest of us. At least the prelims cause some action in the community. And how bad is this "elitist" gating process anyway?.. particularly when it's probably going to be akin to stepping over a two foot fence for any reasonably competent rct player in the first place.

You seem to want to throw a bad "E" word around so I'm going to as well: Entitlement. For whatever reason it seems like you're really feeling entitled to participating in the final round. Why? Why didn't you jump all over the open-to-everyone NEDC contests in the past? Why does it come up now? Now... you're perfectly entitled to feel entitled and not participate or whatever, but I'm not really liking you're whole pity-party straw man arguments against something that really isn't that negative. I don't buy you don't have the time for it, because if you don't then you don't have time to get a final round entry in anyway. And I don't buy this whole "I've never built anything 80% before, so booo" thing either. 1)You've come damn close to 80% and 2)You're building a fraction of a Design to get in. Plus, whether you choose to see it or not, I get the impression that this "Elite Panel" is going to be told to be extremely objective and probably lighten the strictness a whole lot on the prelim judging, and rightly so. On top of that, looking at who will be involved in the judging, it's some of the more generous members of the panel anyway.

tl;dr

Are the prelims superfluous? Arguably, yes... but they're also a part of the contest, or at least some sort of gating event is. We could hold a rapid fire micro madness in place of them and take the 20 best or whatever and allow them in the final PT round. *shrug*

Are the prelims elitist or some sort of mean-spirited exclusion? Not any more than the limited number of roster spots in H2H are. If you say otherwise, you have an agenda.

Food for thought.

Everyone, shut the fuck up, build shit and have fun.

question: do chairlifts fall under the "best transport station" section?

Wellll, I'm gonna be in Taiwan for the majority of the summer and into September, so it looks like I'm passing on this one. I may submit a prelim just for kicks, but then again, not much point.

awesome!

just curious though, will the judging be a little more lenient than how the panel currently operates? Because as can be seen by the amount of elites, it takes a lot of time and a lot of skill to be able to get that high, and it is very rare. Given we have only a month or so to work, and all of the people who do get 80% are already in the contest, I could very easily foresee multiple rounds having no one qualify at all. Maybe this is what you want, to weed out the best? But that is a really small sieve. I think my designs have scored somewhere in the 60s or 70s and that is after months of work (although they represent a slightly less developed cocoa). Maybe if size isn't looked at, I could manage something that scores 80%, but it will have to be really little. Maybe that's what you want though, like a snippet of my skill.

little bit: would you have judged 5dave's pt3 submissions as 80%? They were very good, but given how the panel judges, do you actually think they could get 80%? And 5dave won the pro tour, making one of the best parks in rct2 for its size I've ever seen.

tl;dr, I think its going to be very hard for people to qualify at 80%, but maybe I underestimate.

possible solution? After all the prelims are in, take the top 8 or so scores (the actual number can be decided, maybe if the eighth is really lower than the rest just 7 is chosen) and they qualify.

that aside, I'm super excited to see what the community does. pt3 was one of my first proper forays into parkmaking and I sort of see it as the start of my rct career. looking back at my old pt3 submissions, you can see how far I've come and I'm really pumped for pt4! thanks, admins and whatever

mountbak: er mountbaker moun tbake rmo "untb akermount bakermo" untbaker?

Given we have only a month or so to work, and all of the people who do get 80% are already in the contest, I could very easily foresee multiple rounds having no one qualify at all. Maybe this is what you want, to weed out the best? But that is a really small sieve. I think my designs have scored somewhere in the 60s or 70s and that is after months of work (although they represent a slightly less developed cocoa). Maybe if size isn't looked at, I could manage something that scores 80%, but it will have to be really little. Maybe that's what you want though, like a snippet of my skill.

We are indeed looking for snippets of your skill. For people who usually have a hard time finishing their projects (you and nin for example) but who are definitely capable of 80%+ work, the prelims are an easy ticket to the finals. Your topic in the AD is full of screens that could get you in.

@ ][

If I do manage to finish and get to go against the "elite" few, consider my entry (or two) a warning for what I'm capable of, as you haven't seen something like this from me yet.

You've really captured the whole idea, well done Kyle <3

question: do chairlifts fall under the "best transport station" section?

Chairlifts are indeed a form of transport, so yes, they fall in that category. However remember that it is Best Transport Station, so the focus really should be on the chairlift station rather than the whole chairlift.

just curious though, will the judging be a little more lenient than how the panel currently operates...
...Maybe this is what you want, to weed out the best?...
...Maybe if size isn't looked at, I could manage something that scores 80%, but it will have to be really little. Maybe that's what you want though, like a snippet of my skill...

The judges will be looking at potention and quality, not quantity. We do indeed wish to pick out the very best, we felt that as 80% is the requirement for the elite, it should be the requirement for everyone else. Size won't be looked at, this is why the deadlines are short. You've hit the nail on the head, we want to see a snippet, a showcase of your skill.

Your topic in the AD is full of screens that could get you in.

too bad I can't use them

my little piece of french architecture is sitting around without a home

Milo, I certainly did not mean to come off as entitled, so I'm sorry if it seems that way. You make good points, and I really don't want to take any more away from the thread so I'll quit while I'm ahead. As far as the time thing goes, though, you need to understand that I'm a teacher. I have the summer off. The next four weeks are extremely hectic. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to think that I would have had time for this over the summer, but not necessarily right now during the prelims. No matter. I'll do what I can do get a prelim entry in, whether I like it or not. Hopefully it's as easy as everyone is making it out to be. If so I can definitely get something together.

^That's the spirit!

As i've been telling several people, submit a small entry, build like you always do, and you'll sail right through!

Please don't do snippets.. Remember parks like Infestation at Outpost 23 by cbass and Unfriendly Invador by phatage.. Those were pretty big parks, unique and definitely not snippets.. They weren't full scale parks tho, but they were parks that made the PT so awesome to start out with.
And then they entered the main contest and we all know what happened..

That was back when everyone was competing for the 1st place qualification spot. Here we are encouraging people to focus on quality, and with such short deadlines, if some people can only showcase their quality in smaller entries then that is totally acceptable.

Whatever anyone builds, I'm looking forward to watching what people bring to the table. It will also be interesting to see how many of the elite submit a prelim entry, and how many of them manage to hit that 80% prelim target

Oh, how I wish I had any unfinished entrances lying around...

It only happens once in 5 or so years that I fully agree with Kumba.

My advice to prelim people: This is creative work you're doing. The briefs will be vague and inexplicit. Take the objectives, interpret them your way, make them your own thing, create that in RCT and send it in on time. Don't go overboard. As they said, you're not in an H2H trying to beat the park you're up against. Your goal is to demonstrate your potential to become eligible for a spot in the finals.