General Chat / Aurora Shooting

It's not about what one person with a gun could have done in this situation, it's about the flawed logic that says the incidents like this that occur once every few years outweigh all the possible robberies, attempted murders, break-ins, and so forth that have happened in that time, and the other lives that might have been spared by the presence of a firearm in the hands of someone whose only interest is defense.

EDIT: One interesting take on the "controversy"

A thread discussing it

It's not about what one person with a gun could have done in this situation, it's about the flawed logic that says the incidents like this that occur once every few years outweigh all the possible robberies, attempted murders, break-ins, and so forth that have happened in that time, and the other lives that might have been spared by the presence of a firearm in the hands of someone whose only interest is defense.

EDIT: One interesting take on the "controversy"

A thread discussing it

Keep on thinking that a man, scared, under fire, more than likely not trained to fire the gun properly let alone to fire it in a combat situation, and stuck in a poorly lit room filling up with gas, would make the situation better and not worse. Again, how very American. You've seen way too many fucking movies.

See, unlike Call of Duty, when you accidentally shoot the civilians, you can't restart the level and bring them back to life.

If any of you think someone else with a gun would've been able to kill a guy with a bulletproof vest, riot mask in a dark theatre where tear gas had been set off, without injuring or killing anyone else, well...I don't know what to say to you.

Not at all what I'm saying. What I'm pointing out is that in an environment where people tried to ban weapons, the person who broke that rule and armed himself was a lunatic who committed a horrible crime. In this particular situation, I honestly doubt that anyone carrying inside the theater would've made a difference by fighting back.

Now, more accessible psychological healthcare..

This is obviously all thoroughly disturbing. I'll admit that I felt uneasy last night when I watched the movie and the first action scene began. Uneasy not because I was afraid of an attack happening, but because I knew that that was the same moment that these people were watching when so many lost their lives. RIP

For you guys that didn't bother reading Egbert's article that was linked in this thread:

"The theory is that gun ownership makes us safer. That doesn't seem to be working out for us. The body count rises. In Chicago we have a murder wave going on. Gun ownership doesn't bring safety when both sides are shooting at each other. Nationally, most guns fired in homes kill people who live there, including children, and do not kill home invaders. The death toll in Aurora only represented half the daily U.S. average in deaths by gunfire. In a year, guns murdered 468 people in Australia, England, Germany and in Canada put together, and 9,484 in the United States. "

are the numbers there really comparable? i agree with the sentiment, but the factual backing seems a little off.

I don't think a reputable source like Egbert would be making up numbers. But I haven't double checked them myself.

What google brought up:
http://www.nationmas...s-with-firearms

i wasn't suggesting they are false, i was suggesting they aren't comparable.

Correlation does not equal causation. And that would still surprise me. Are they counting shots by police or SWAT? Where did he get his numbers?

while correlation does not equal causation is a valid statement to make it is a bit like saying innocent until proven guilty over a guy covered in blood eating another guys heart.

For you guys that didn't bother reading Egbert's article that was linked in this thread:

"The theory is that gun ownership makes us safer. That doesn't seem to be working out for us. The body count rises. In Chicago we have a murder wave going on. Gun ownership doesn't bring safety when both sides are shooting at each other. Nationally, most guns fired in homes kill people who live there, including children, and do not kill home invaders. The death toll in Aurora only represented half the daily U.S. average in deaths by gunfire. In a year, guns murdered 468 people in Australia, England, Germany and in Canada put together, and 9,484 in the United States. "

America does have a problem with shootings, I give you that much; but that's more of a cultural issue than a law-related one. Look at Switzerland, guns are almost as easily available as they are in the USA, and yet nobody is going on shooting sprees there.

The difference between America and Switzerland is that the Swiss have mandatory military service, where everyone is trained how to use a gun and gets to keep their rifle when they're done, with the assumption that should they ever need to organize into a standing army, they can. In America, everyone who's seen Die Hard and hasn't been convicted (caught) of a felony gets to buy seven of them.

But sure. There's a lot of cultural questions to ask. Why didn't anyone notice this kid? Why is the government making it harder to get psychological help with their laws they're currently arguing over? Why is there such a perceived danger that everyone NEEDS to protect themselves? If there actually is an increased danger in America that's not present in say, Switzerland, what are the socioeconomic and cultural influences that lead people to want to go to such extreme ends so much more here? And again, if it is that bad, why does handing out more guns seem like an appropriate fix?

And in typical American fashion, we answer all these questions with whatever we believed before the incident because we are deep fucking thinkers...

And in typical American fashion, we answer all these questions with whatever we believed before the incident because we are deep fucking thinkers...

Because one incident doesn't change a goddamn thing.

I agree with what you said above that, though. It's a sociological issue. But the presence of protection dissuades criminal issues. NOT like this Aurora shooting, I'm talking gun laws on a larger, country-wide scale. Arizona has stricter gun laws than some states anyway. It really doesn't matter. I looked up Virginia's gun laws, and they're about the same as Montana, yet Virginia Tech happened. It's not the gun laws or the accessibility. But to be fair, guns aren't exactly free. Hell, the one I'm getting is costing over $1200, and that's less than half of the most expensive handgun my brother owns.

The issues are what would make a person want to harm others, not how they do it. He could pick up a knife and go after the same thing. The casualties would very likely be fewer, but that's really ignoring the core issue.

Because one incident doesn't change a goddamn thing.

I guess, assuming you weren't one of the people who was shot.

I kinda skimmed the responses for the first few pages, so I apologize if this has been brought up before, but there's a difference between eliminating guns and controlling what type of gun you can access as a civilian. I mean, you can't carry a concealed AR-15 very well anyways. Assault rifles have no place in public hands.

A knife would cause less casualties. But thats because it takes balls to get into someones face and see the whites of there eyes and use it. Any idiot can use a gun to kill someone.

And if it was a knife and this idiot approached you with it rather then a gun. in a theatre with at least 100 people in it they would have laughed at the guy.

Im in the opinion that i dont need a gun to defend myself. But thats because where i live guns arent used much. But if i lived in america where guns are so easily available i would have a gun no doubt.

And those, numbers are staggering AC

The thing prolly is, people have guns because everyone else has guns.
If everyone has one, why can't you have one? What is the difference?

"According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from:

- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
- a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
- family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%"

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj...ontent/guns.cfm

I would be interested to know if those figures have changed at all in the past fifteen years.

All that it shows is that prison inmates tend to not do things legally.

Well they can't exactly poll the ones that don't get caught, can they?