General Chat / GOD

God does (not) exist. I don't know, but my opinion on this changes all the time. I talk to him when I need him.

how can you prove/justify that?

You can't. Nor can you prove that he does exist. Refer back to my statement about perception being reality.

It really would solve a lot of problems if people would just accept the fact that we have differing opinions and move on.

ehh, i should have explained it a bit clearer lol.

i meant like, how can you prove or justify that personally?
what specifically makes you come to the conclusion that God absolutely doesnt exist?
i mean, i have my own personal reasons and experiences that have totally convinced me without a doubt that he's real, and that he loves us.
but what is it that motivates you to believe that he isnt?
is it just the fact that he is something you cant see?
or is it maybe the whole concept of a higher power existing that actually loves and cares for us?
i'm not trying to start anything, i'm just curious:]

man, i like you level, i just wonder why you seem so mad and bitter when you talk on this subject.

and this goes for anyone else here that feels the same way.
what specifically convinces you that God without a doubt doesnt exist?

Or he is just non-existent. He just isn't.

No He is.

I can't, I just KNOW.

BTW incities, I am convinced that he doesn't exist, and if he does exist he clearly doesn't mind that people have different religious beliefs and that he hates all of us equally.

Edited by Wanted, 06 August 2009 - 08:18 PM.

Well, I think that if God does exist, He made me an atheist. He specifically wants me to question his authority. Keep them Christians on there toes. I like to use that line on people who tell me that I need Jesus in my life.

But if God is such a nice guy, than why is it that when I read the Bible, he comes across as a total asshole? When Abel brings God the lamb, God thanks him for his gift. When Cain brings the fruit of the earth, God isn't satisfied. There really isn't any explanation given as to why God rejects Cain's offering, which makes God seem like a real jerk. So in retrospect, it's God's fault that Cain killed Abel because God decided to be fickle.

And let's not forget the flood. I don't know about you, but I call that a quick solution to a complicated problem that He Himself started. Instead of trying to deal with everyone individually, he just said "Fuck it, I'm gonna flood the world." And I really don't think that fixed the problem at all.

And what about Abraham? He told him to kill his own son. And Abraham was actually gonna do it! What the hell? I know it was a test, but come on! That's a bit serious, especially since He's God, and everyone is supposed to do what He says. Can you imagine if your dad was going to kill you because God said so? You'd feel a bit betrayed, wouldn't you? I'd be wondering what the hell I did to piss Mr. Lovey-Dovey off.

Edited by FullMetal, 06 August 2009 - 08:57 PM.

I can't prove whether God exists or doesn't so I won't get into that argument.

My issue is with organised religion and people who devote their lives to it. Personally I look at it this way, we don't know what will happen when we die, this life maybe our only one so let's not waste it living by rules telling us what to do even when there is no way of showing them to be truthful.

Well I am a CoE (Church of England) non practising of course and something that gets me about religion is the sometimes threatening attitudes, the do this or forever burn in hell, and that I can supposedly do anything I won't as long as I confess and are forgiven. What's the deal with that??

jIp<

Can you imagine if your dad was going to kill you because God said so? You'd feel a bit betrayed, wouldn't you? I'd be wondering what the hell I did to piss Mr. Lovey-Dovey off.

I believe people claim this in court quite often.

I may be entirely wrong but this is what I remember from my lit class. I'm pretty sure that that story about Cain & Abel is based on an earlier story and actually has little to do with God and more to do with the fact that the writers of the Old Testament were in fact shepherds (like Abel) and thus wished to portray this role in a sympathetic/positive light. Feuding between farmers and shepherds is pretty well-documented and continues today. In fact, in the original story, I think the farmer is murdered by the herder.

Remember that the Bible is written by man, and thus it's not perfect. For instance, there were many gospels written, yet only four were included. They were chosen specifically to aid in organizing/growing the church if I'm not mistaken. So please, the Bible is definitely an interesting book but it should be read and interpreted carefully.

Edited by gir, 06 August 2009 - 09:33 PM.

ehh, i should have explained it a bit clearer lol.

i meant like, how can you prove or justify that personally?
what specifically makes you come to the conclusion that God absolutely doesnt exist?
i mean, i have my own personal reasons and experiences that have totally convinced me without a doubt that he's real, and that he loves us.
but what is it that motivates you to believe that he isnt?
is it just the fact that he is something you cant see?
or is it maybe the whole concept of a higher power existing that actually loves and cares for us?
i'm not trying to start anything, i'm just curious:]

man, i like you level, i just wonder why you seem so mad and bitter when you talk on this subject.

and this goes for anyone else here that feels the same way.
what specifically convinces you that God without a doubt doesnt exist?

And maybe I should have been clearer. It's absolutely ridiculous for you to demand the same proof you can't produce yourself. Your conviction is based on your own feelings, thoughts, premonitions, teachings, etc. .... Just like all the athiests that have expressed their thoughts in this thread. There is no absolute proof. There is no right answer. Find your own way and your own meaning.

Edited by Midnight Aurora, 06 August 2009 - 09:47 PM.

To lighten the conversation (and maybe get a few laughs), I thought I'd post this excerpt from George Carlin's book, When Will Jesus Bring The Pork Chops?. It is titled, "The Continuing Story of Mary and Joseph: 'It's a Boy'".



MARY: Joe, we're gonna have a baby.

JOE: What? That's impossible. All I ever do is put it between your thighs.

MARY: Well, I don't know. Something must've gone wrong.

JOE: Who says you're pregnant?

MARY: An angel appeared to me in the backyard and said so.

JOE: An angel?

MARY: An angel of God. His name was Gabriel. He had a trumpet and he appeared to me in the backyard.

JOE: He what?

MARY: He appeared to me.

JOE: Was he naked?

MARY: No. I think he had on a raincoat. I don't really know. He was glowing so brightly.

JOE: Mary, you're under a lot of stress. Why don't you take a few days off from the shop. The accounts can wait.

MARY: I'm telling you, Joe. This Angel Gabriel said that God wanted me to have his baby.

JOE: Did you ask for some sort of sign?

MARY: Of course I did. He said tomorrow morning I'd start getting sick.

JOE: But why should God want a kid?

MARY: Well, Gabriel said that according to Luke it's kind of an ego thing. Plus, he promised the Jews a long time ago, it's just that he never got around to it. But now that he feels ready for children he doesn't want to just make them out of clay or dust. He wants to get humans involved.

JOE: Well, is he going to help toward raising the kid? God knows we can't do it alone. I could use a bigger shop, and maybe he could throw a couple of those nice crucifix contracts my way. The Romans are nailin' up everything that walks.

MARY: Honey, Gabriel said not to worry. The kid would be a real winner. A public speaker and good with miracles.

JOE: Well, that's a relief. Anyway, I guess now that you're officially pregnant I can start puttin' it inside you.

MARY: I'm sorry, honey, God wants it to be stictly a virgin birth.

JOE: I don't get it.

MARY: That's right, Joe.

JOE: Don't I get to do anything?

MARY: He wants you to come up with a name for the kid.

JOE: Jesus Christ!

MARY: Joe, you're so heavy.






God, I miss Carlin. Why can't he rise from the grave?

Edited by FullMetal, 06 August 2009 - 10:45 PM.

hmm.
i'm not trying to sound childish like "ooh, i have proof i have proof!"
and i'm not trying to demand anything from anyone.
like i said, i'm just curious as to why he felt that way man.

personally, my faith in God comes from a huge number of occurances in my life, and the lives of people close to me that i simply cant ignore.
dude, i have been too many places, heard too many things and seen too many miracles happen to deny that God is real.
i'm not trying to force this on anyone, or offend anyone, i'm just simply stating that i believe in God, and this is why.
while you may say that perception is reality, i agree with that to some extent.
but for me, i have all the 'proof' that i need to convince me.
i mean honestly, how could i ignore the sight of personally laying hands on other people and praying for them to be healed by God, and watching them be healed instantly?
i've seen things like that happen, on multiple occasions.
theres no other explanation for that kind of stuff in my opinion except for the fact that it was God.

for instance, a few years back, i was on a trip to venezuela with my family to stay at an orphanage for two months.
we were there to assist the owner in any way, and just love on these kids. it was utterly amazing.
well, as i'm sure some of you might know, Venezuela and the US arent really on the greatest terms with eachother.
being an american tourist in that country is a pretty dangerous thing to be, and brings a lot of hatred upon you.
well, my family was held up at the airport by the venezuelan military airport guards, and accused as being 'spies'.
we were searched. they took out all of our luggage. they questioned us. and they were going to detain us.
it was horrible.
but the whole time, we were praying, 'God, get us out of this mess' and such.
well of course, seemingly for no reason, the guards decided to let us go all of a sudden, and set us free.
amazing? yes. still not enough proof though? ehh i guess.
a few days later, we were riding through a town, getting supplies for the orphanage's kitchen.
we ended up getting stopped at gunpoint at a random roadblock by the military, and again we were accused of being spies.
they ordered us out of the vehicle, and began questioning us.
yet again, we prayed for God's mercy, and what do you know?, they let us go for no reason again.
now, i dont know about you guys, but being held up at gunpoint by 4 or 5 men in fatigues, in a country where we dont speak the language, and being accused of being spies is a hard thing to imagine.
its even harder to imagine getting out of that situation.
but we did, and truly, it was because of God.

i've also been at gunpoint by a large gang of men in south africa on my last trip out of the country, simply because we were a group of americans, who they hated.
they said they wanted to kill all of us.
i was never so scared in my life.
especially because my little sister was there with me (she was 15 at the time), and i was terrified for her safety as well.
here we were, in a run down neighborhood in Cape Town, being threatened by a group of armed men who hated us.
a little scary?
uhh yes.
but yet again, we never lost faith in God, and for some reason or the other, the gang just randomly decided to move on and leave us alone.
is that luck?
maybe.
but i believe it was God.


and do i even need to go into the time of when i was in argentina 5 years ago, and our group was threatened by a satanic cult who operated out of a building adjacent to the church where we were based out of?
and how they set bombs out around our church while we were sleeping?
we woke up the next to thirteen bombs outside the church, intended to kill us, yet, each of them was malfunctioned, and failed to diffuse.
come to find out, that very day, that group departed from that location and was never heard from again.
was that just some random coincidence?
well i sure hope not.
because we sure did a lot of praying, and if that was a coincidence, that was a majorly insane one!
i truly believe that it was God that kept us safe and out of harm.

i know all this crap sounds crazy, and sounds like it came out of some sort of movie or whatnot, but this is my life.
i experienced it firsthand, and nothing can take that away from me.
there are many other scenarios that have happened in my life just like these in that i have been brought out of dangerous and life threatening situations by crazy circumstances.
things so crazy that they just dont 'happen' without some sort of higher power looking out.
i mean, if i'm in trouble and in a dangerous situation, and i pray to God, and all of a sudden, against all odds, something happens, and suddenly the problem is gone, who should i give credit to?
luck?
no, its happened too many times on too many different occasions to be just simply 'luck'.
i believe firmly in the power of God, and yet, as i may not understand and comprehend it fully and completely, i know what i've experienced, and i know what i believe.
thats not going to change.

now i'm not here to sound like a crazy person, because i'm really not.
i'm a very logical thinker, and i fully analyze every situation presented before me.
but yet, throughout my entire life so far, i have just experienced too much, and encountered so much evidence, that i came to the conclusion that yes, there is a God, and i believe in him.
not because its 'what i've been taught', or what people say is right, i believe in God because of what i've found on my own.
not what others have told me.

look guys, i really hate arguing, especially if its an arguement that is so divided and controvertial.
i'm not trying to put anyone down, or put myself or my beliefs above anyone.
i'm just trying to explain why i believe what i believe.
i really dont want to cause any conflicts with any of the members here at this site, because honestly, i happen to like all of you, and there isnt a single person here who i dislike.
so please dont hold my beliefs against me guys.
if you dont agree with them, then dont hate me for it, please.

but hey, i'm really sorry for this uber long post lol.
i didnt mean for it to go this long, its just a matter thats very important to me you know?

so i'm not going to clutter up this topic anymore.
if anyone has any questions, or wants to question me, feel free to message me at any point, its no problem.
i kindof agree with MA, in that this really isnt solving anything going back and forth like this lol.

so yeah guys, this is what i believe, this is what i stand by.
its not going to change.

i respect all of you.
josh

Well I truely respect your opinion In:Cities, unlike others on this forum.

I understand that you believe that these are "miracles" but I have seen too many horrible things happen to innocent people to believe that such a god would let that happen.

We're not out to hate you for what you believe. Anyone who thinks like that doesn't need to be posting in this thread. So far we've had a great discussion and a peaceful exchange of ideas. No one's accusing anyone of anything, and no one's forcing their beliefs on others. This is how sensible people debate. Kevin is not one of those sensible people.

And I really think your a great person for doing what you do, Josh. I know if it was me, I'd say "Fuck it," after the second hostage situation. You have the cojones street gangs would kill for.

However, I feel much more secure in the idea that each of the events you described has a logical explanation. I'm not going to accuse you of telling stories, but I can't accept the fact that it was divine intervention.

And that's what makes us different. You can accept faith, I can't. I have to have a reason. And that's totally cool.

Although if there was a way to prove the validity of miracles in some sort of scientific experiment, then I might concede that God does exist. But that doesn't mean I'll worship Him.

Edited by FullMetal, 06 August 2009 - 11:10 PM.

lol i understand bro^

its just happened to me on so many different occasions, that i really just cant deny it anymore.
its more illogical to try and accept that each solution has a logical explanation than to believe that it was God.

i mean if we prayed to him, and each time in those situations, he came through, i cant simply accept that as a coincidence lol.

i have been through several more situations similar to those i described as well, but i think you get the gist of what happened in each.
i just cant deny it bro.
in my case, there is no possible logical explanation for each one of those solutions other than God.

thats my belief.
and i'll let it rest at that.

i dont look down on you for what you believe or dont believe fullmetal, and i'm glad you understand that.
i just wanted to clarify exactly where i'm coming from and why i believe in God.

wow i'm tired lol.
later guys:]

josh

and this goes for anyone else here that feels the same way.
what specifically convinces you that God without a doubt doesnt exist?

See, the issue here is that it doesn't work like that. To say that God does not and cannot exist, without a doubt, requires some faith.

I suppose I can't speak for other atheists, but for me, at least, the universe *works* without a God. That doesn't preclude him existing. However, as someone who builds his perceptions on science and the scientific method, in the absence of concrete evidence, I can't justify saying that he does exist. Occam's (sp?) Razor says that the simplest system is most often correct; if I can explain the universe without invoking God, it's safe to assume he does not exist... unless evidence to the contrary comes to light. (The other solution is to say "Everything in the universe is the direct work of God." Valid insofar as it goes, I suppose, but inevitably worthless when it comes to explaining phenomenon.)

That being said, I can say with reasonable certainty that the omnipotent, omnipresent God as depicted in the bible probably does not exist. (For various reasons. However, *that* particular discussion has never ended civilly, so I'll let it be.)

-ACE

(This post was originally written yesterday, posting now because my network borked.)

Anyway, regarding your new post, In:Cities: You've been in a lot of situations that turned out a lot better than anyone could've hoped for. That much is clear. However, there could be rational explanations for each of them. Perhaps the cultists were shitty chemists/electricians. Maybe the Cape Town thugs realized that killing a group of Americans would probably be a bad idea, no matter how much they disliked you. The Venezuelans most likely did the same routine to every American coming into the country -- but they wouldn't be dumb enough to actually hurt or detain you and risk drawing the attention of the US. They were sending a message.

I don't mean to challenge your faith or belittle your troubles, so please don't take offense. However, again, as far as I can tell, they could happen without God, they could resolve themselves without God. Does that mean God wasn't involved? Maybe.

-ACE

hmm.
i'm not trying to sound childish like "ooh, i have proof i have proof!"
and i'm not trying to demand anything from anyone.
like i said, i'm just curious as to why he felt that way man.

personally, my faith in God comes from a huge number of occurances in my life, and the lives of people close to me that i simply cant ignore.

...SNIP...

so i'm not going to clutter up this topic anymore.
if anyone has any questions, or wants to question me, feel free to message me at any point, its no problem.
i kindof agree with MA, in that this really isnt solving anything going back and forth like this lol.

so yeah guys, this is what i believe, this is what i stand by.
its not going to change.

i respect all of you.
josh

The things you believe shape what you attribute life events to. An athiest would interpret them differently, a pagan would interpret them differently, a scientologist would interpret them differently... Basically all you told me is that you have faith, and for that reason, this is how you think it applied it to your life. You took a situation with thousands of possible solutions and reasons and picked one answer based on your faith.

The Indian rain dances were also very effective. Because they didn't stop dancing until it rained. And they attributed it to the gods when it did finally rain.

I could use a bigger shop, and maybe he could throw a couple of those nice crucifix contracts my way. The Romans are nailin' up everything that walks.

I almost shit my pants there.

Just wondering: who did you (athiests) think Jesus was?
FullMetal, you should read the New Testament. I'd like to know what you think then, since you don't take "any shit from anybody until you know exactly what's going on."

-disneylhand

Just wondering: who did you (athiests) think Jesus was?

A good man. Selfless, kind, loving, willing to sacrifice for the sake of his fellow man.

Pretty much what everyone thinks of him. I just drop the "son of God" part.

-ACE