General Chat / GOD

What does this have to do with kids in Africa? Well, let's say you donate five dollars to a group of religious people who are going to go to Africa and give a village food. They pick the village that deserves their help most. How are they going to get to Africa? Well, they're probably going to use some of that money you donated to buy plane tickets. I didn't just fork over five dollars so you could buy plane tickets, damnit!

yo dude, i've been to Africa, i was a part of one of those 'religious groups', and we went there for the children.
i know firsthand exactly what went on, and how that money goes to use.

for instance, you said that if you give 5 dollars towards the trip, and some of it goes to our plane ticket, honestly what harm does that do?
you're most likely not going to be going to Africa on that trip with us, and any money you give anywhere else will most likely not go straight to those in need, so why not help enable those who actually have the opportunity to go and assist these people?
yes, i acknowledge that there are some churches in america that recieve money, and use it on the wrong things.
i've seen it myself, and its somewhat sickening.
but again, you cant always generalize everything bro!
i know for a fact that any and all money that went towards that trip, indeed went towards funding that trip, and helping us secure supplies.
we wouldnt have gone anywhere and wouldnt have made any impact if we hadnt recieved any money from people willing to help and support us and our cause.
so man, next time you make a statement about not giving money to people who are going to 'feed the hungry' and such, dont go straight to the assumption that "oh, these guys just want my money, and it wont even go towards what they say it will".
because more than likely, it will either go straight to those in need, or in the hands of those who will use it to help those in need.
trust me man.
i've been there and done that.
now i'm not trying to come down on you at all bro.
i happen to like you, and find you to be a likable guy:]
i just hate to see generalizations made like that without any absolute knowledge into the matter you know?

and as for that trip, utterly incredible.
my sister and i had to raise literally thousands of dollars to be able to go to that trip, and i know for a fact that two teenagers somehow being able to raise over 8 thousand dollars in a 4 month span is nothing short of a miracle!
it was insanity man lol.
i mean, we mowed yards, we babysat, we cleaned, we worked, we listed stuff on ebay lol. i mean we did everything possible to be able to get that money in so we would be able to go, and yet we were still short.
but somehow at the last minute, money just came in for us to be able to go.
i mean, people and family we havent even told that we were going on the trip began sending us checks in the mail for hundreds of dollars, which enabled us to go.
so crazy lol.
that trip, along with others, changed my life, and i know for a fact, helped to change countless lives of others as well.
i still carry those memories around with me wherever i go, and it makes me truly appreciate my life a million times more than i did.

but hey, maybe i'll talk more about that trip and the many other trips like that that i've been on some other time, because i just stopped typing and realized that i just got wayyyy off topic;]

going to the world and helping people in need is something that is very close to my heart, and to see people talking negatively about it in anyway kindof hurts me personally you know?
so man, maybe think a bit from a different point of view next time before you say something like that.
because it may have been 5 dollars from you that could have resulted in one more hungry child being fed by a group like us.
they sure arent complaining where the money came from, they're just hungry and grateful.

so yeah, thats all i have to say about this for now man:]
my fingers are getting a bit tired lol.
but maybe, just consider it a bit next time before you speak on the matter?

josh

I appreciate what you've said in this topic, Josh. I was going to echo your comments about the $5 going to helping with traveling expenses and such - it is all in the same cause whether it goes to food or plane tickets or gas to get there. I think it's great that you got to go to Africa, sounds like an amazing trip! I have made it down to Mexico twice now, and seeing poverty and other needs there is heart-wrenching to say the least. I gained more out of those trips to Mexico than any other vacation I've been on just to have fun.

I consider myself a very scientific thinker, and after thinking about it I feel there must be some sort of higher power. It's highly unlikely that we will ever be able to prove or disprove a god so I can't be 100% sure. Honestly, I don't think any religion really has the faintest idea about a higher power. There are so many different views I can't really trust one to be right. I am Catholic and some of the beliefs are obviously off. Now I don't choose to be Catholic because I think Catholic views are right, I choose to be Catholic because I want to believe in those views.

I know that there must be some sort of higher power because, odds are, I wasn't brought to this world by chance. Now, I don't know what that higher power is. I want to believe its an all-powerfull being that has control of the passing of the universe, but it could simply be something that governs the universe's laws and creation. Religion most likely doesn't know for sure, I view religion as a practice to guide your life and especially cope with the fear of death. I don't think we are terribly far off from living basically forever but that's besides the point.

I don't understand how people can devote their entire lives to something they can't be sure exists. This has always confused me.

^I think religion is a funny thing to be opposed to. Nobody forces you into it, so if you don't find it beneficial to you, you can ignore it. For instance, I think something like Scientology is rather stupid, but I'm not opposed to it because it doesn't effect me in any way.

As for God, sure I believe in the existance of God. Why not? Nothing can prove or disprove that he exists, but sometimes I think you've just got to make a leap of faith and believe in something bigger and greater than what you see in front of you.

The thing that bothers me is how so many atheists (those who deny the existance of any higher being) have this self-righteousness about them, and see people who believe in God as some form of weaker being that needs something to believe in in order to shield them from the real world and provide a meaning for life. I certainly won't call myself an intellectual, but I like to think of myself as a smart person who can think for themself. I'm certainly not weak-minded, and I'm not force-fed ideas of life and salvation. I think about these things myself, and to be honest, it all just makes sense to me.

Now religion is a whole different discussion. Personally, I'm Catholic, but I'm not gonna sit around and condemn everyone to hell like some jackasses that give us all a bad name. What do I know? I'm just one person of the billions that have walked this Earth. If there's one thing I could say, it would be to please not form your opinions on religion based off of a handful of people. It would be like me saying "I hate black people," because an African American man stole my car (hypothetically of course lol). And I'm sure many of you who are atheist would take offense to me calling you self-righteous. I've met a ton of atheists who are, and I've met a ton who are really great people. You kind of just need to see religion like that. Be open-minded enough to realize that what you percieve as religion may, in fact, not be.

And that leads me to my last point, which is sort of a rant, so I apologize in advance. Why has it become the "hip" thing in today's society as of late to be a secular, liberal-thinking atheist? I wrote a research paper about this in my first year of college, and some of what I found was very interesting. I feel like people think that in order to be a down-to-earth person, you can't believe in God, and that somehow Religion constrains "liberal thinking." What is liberal thinking? Pro choice? Gay rights? There's nothing radical here. So many people love to view themselves as radicals and rebellions to the format of society we have lived in for so long. To those of you who I'm referring to, get over yourselves. You're one in the crowd. Everyone is one in the crowd. One of my favorite quotes of all time is from a pretty strange source, Alice Cooper: "Drinking beer is easy. Trashing your hotel room is easy. But being a Christian, that's a tough call. That's real rebellion!"

I didn't want to type a lot here, but I've decided to make this my be all and end all response to all debates on religion or God. In summary, I believe in God and I'm a Catholic. I don't condemn those who are not, and those who are not should not condemn me. The end.

First, I'd like to say thanks for posting this. It was a good read, and an excellent post.

That said, I feel I should point out that the "self-righteous atheist" (and I freely admit that I was one a few years ago) has very little to do with the person being an atheist, and a lot to do with the person being an asshole. (And the same goes for evangelical, fundamentalist Christians.)

The problem is that assholes are generally more vocal about their religious beliefs than non-assholes. Thus, it's much easier to see the other side as consisting entirely of assholes, simply because you don't identify the non-assholes as being atheist/Christian.

As far as it being hip to be an atheist? Well, I have no idea about the majority of society, but I can tell you it's certainly not a popular choice around here. Nor did I decide on atheism out of rebellion. (Actually, to be honest, my religious views are far more complex, and often changing, than "atheist" suggests.) If anything, it was because I figured Pascal's wager made more sense to me the other way 'round. However, I don't doubt that there are people who do that. And again, it's not really an issue with religion or atheism, it's an issue with people.

tl;dr: Religion/atheism isn't the issue, people are the issue.

-ACE

Here's my issue with the whole situation, and I would love for someone to give their opinion on it.
I don't think that a human has any soul. I don't believe, that our fate is any different from my pet dog or the fly flying around in my room. I believe that when we pass we enter the same state we were in before we were born, and I hope that we are brought back into this world, whether it be as a human or not.

"Life is so short and I'm sure, there must be something more"

So you're going for sort of a reincarnation type deal there? At least, that's what I'm getting out of it.

I've always wondered that if reincarnation was real, who have I been and who will I become. Will I remember who've I was? Apparently not, if I don't remember anything now.

But for me, reincarnation would cause more problems than it would fix. Instead of trying to better myself, I'd spend my entire life trying to figure who I was before. But that's just me. And if humans are at the top of the food chain, then wouldn't coming back as anything but a human kind of suck?

Also, I'd like to apologize to Josh. I wasn't trying to sound like a dick, but I guess it just came out that way.

lol dont worry about it bro, its not a big deal at all.

just wanted to clarify some things:]


also, why would reincarnation exist in the first place?
for one, its insanely pointless, because us that are living are completely unaware of anyone else from a past life that has been reincarnated, whether as a human or animal.
and two, in order for us to reincarnate, what is the force behind us that causes us to reincarnate? it would have to be some higher power, like God. but why would a god want to force us to live our lives on earth over and over again, especially if we cant even remember who we were, or who any fellow reincarnates are?

i find the whole concept of reincarnation very full of flaws, and contradictory lol.

Now you know how I feel about God and Christianity.

Interesting thought: Why do we have to capitalize His pronoun? I can understand why we capitalize God--that's His name. Just as you would capitalize Allah or Yahweh. But why do we have to capitalize the pronoun? We don't capitalize it for anyone else, so why should we capitalize for them? Is it because He's so great? I don't think He's all that great, so why should I be forced to capitalize His pronoun for the sake of grammatical accuracy?

Edited by FullMetal, 04 August 2009 - 11:45 PM.

^well its a form of respect.
you're not forced to capitalize it.
but i capitalize it because i do think he's great.
its respectful, and i capitalize it just like i would capitalize the first letter of anyone else's name lol.
but no, its not something that absolutely required.
if you dont capitalize it, its not like the literary police are going to hunt you down and attack you or anything

Now you know how I feel about God and Christianity.

Interesting thought: Why do we have to capitalize His pronoun? I can understand why we capitalize God--that's His name. Just as you would capitalize Allah or Yahweh. But why do we have to capitalize the pronoun? We don't capitalize it for anyone else, so why should we capitalize for them? Is it because He's so great? I don't think He's all that great, so why should I be forced to capitalize His pronoun for the sake of grammatical accuracy?

i dont even see the point in you typing that.
its basic respect isnt it?

and in:cities, you are a good man.



anyhoo, i basically brlieve in an athiests form of karma, cause that is the way i live my life.
i ask for very little at all, much less than my family and friends.
i always return what i take if its not from my family in the form of food.
and i would do almost anything for almost anyone.
i always remember my manners and everything.
maybe there will be somepoint in my life when i might get a little back.
dunno.

id like to think im a good person, but there is somewhere i go wrong.

Ace, I totally agree with you there. I think this is why I'm not one of the people who will say something like, "Atheism hurts/helps society," or "Christianity hurts/helps society," because, the way I see it, Religious beliefs don't define how a person acts, but merely act as a guide. People decide how they wish to act on their own. Religious or non-religious, everyone should strive to be a good person. You'll get assholes on both ends, for sure.

As for the "hip," thing, that was probably a bit of a generalization on my part. Certainly not everyone is like that, and from what you say, I can totally understand where you're coming from. In the research paper I mentioned, I came across a news story where a high school graduate had protested his graduation because of some use of a prayer (or something of that sort). The story focused around how in this kid's neighborhood, he was viewed as an outcast. His beliefs were the ultimate taboo. However, there are many parts of this country where it's almost opposite, which is interesting. I guess it really all has to do with where you grow up or where you live.

Oh, and I have to say I'm impressed by this topic. Great posts all around.

Edited by zburns999, 05 August 2009 - 09:38 AM.

i dont even see the point in you typing that.
its basic respect isnt it?

I understand the respect thing, but why is it that God is only "being" that deserves to have His pronoun capitalized as a sign of respect? Obama is the president of the United States. I think he deserves a lot of respect, but we don't capitalize his pronoun.

And the literary police may not hunt me down, but it will hurt my score on a research paper. And if I submit a resume to a company that I'm applying for, and the boss happens to be particularly religious, he may think less of me for making such an ignorant mistake (though I don't think ignorant is the right word). If I can find the news article, I'll post it, but a woman had been fired from her job because of her disbelief in God. The boss claimed that he didn't want that kind of negativity in his office. Not capitalizing His pronoun could lead to me not getting the job I want, in an extreme case, of course.

That, and my junior year English teacher said that we had to. She, too, mentioned respect.

And there are some things I do respect. Living in the Bible belt, many family members say grace before eating, because that's the way they were raised. Now, I won't participate in the prayer, and I won't say "Amen," but I will wait patiently until everyone is finished before I begin eating. That's my way of showing respect for other people's beliefs.

One more thing before I quit typing: Why are there so many different groups of Christians? I honestly think that that's where half the problem lies. I like to think that we atheists come in only a few varieties. You have your passive atheists that don't believe in God, and they don't make a big fuss about it; you have your proactive atheists that don't believe in God, but they have outstanding opinions (I fit here); and you have your extreme atheists that really don't believe in God, and they believe all Christians should die. But you Christians have you Presbytarians, Evangalists, Episcopalians, Methodists, Baptists, etc. There's five right there, and that's not all of them. And they all believe in the same general idea, but there are a few differences amongst each. So when the simple atheist comes in contact with a Christian, it's like opening a fortune cookie: You don't know which ideas you're going to encounter. Is God in charge of everything, or is he just here to supervise? Does he have a plan for each of us, or are we just wandering in the dark? Are we all doomed to hell, or are we all given a free ride to heaven? That's just another reason why I will never go back to Christianity. (Yes, I used to be Christian. Imagine that...)

Fullmetal, have faith, and what you said with the boss firing someone thing, that doesn't sound very christian. I beleive in god and jesus as the messiah, but I don't belive all stories in the bible, like adom and eve because I believe some links in evoulution. God deserves respect, he doesn't ask for it, but he created us, and what I learned in church, god gives everyone a second chance, can you imagine giving adolf hitler or osama bin laden another chance? God is said to be the kindest most welcoming being of all. Religion is more about faith and honering your neighbor. Christianity, Islamic, and Buhhdism ect. all have to do with being moral and nice, and religion has a set of rules. I am a christian so I can do good virtues and be a better person by doing the right thing. The bible is full of lesson in life, that's what christianity is about.

FullMetal, I wouldn't call the capitalization of the pronoun "He" a form of respect as much as a form of tradition. Some people were tought from a young age to do that, and it kind of stuck with them. I was never really introduced to that, so I don't really do it; not as a form of disrespect, but just because it's not tradition for me. So, while I can see where you're going with your argument about submitting a resume and whatnot, I think your fear might not really be warrented.

Now, the capitalization of "God," however, is a form of respect. As a matter of fact, whenever I am reading a discussion about God on-line or on paper, I can always tell the atheists from the people who believe in God by whether or not they capitalize the actual name. Well, not always, but often enough. And maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's not too much to ask for passive atheists, or even for some outspoken atheists to capitalize the word "God," just to show respect to those who believe in his existance (there's quite a few lol). I'm not Hindu, but sure I would capitalize the name of a Hindu god if I was writing about one. It's all about respect for other people's beliefs, I suppose.

Edited by zburns999, 05 August 2009 - 10:12 PM.

fullmetal, like In:cities said, your a likable guy,

but i really cant see why your putting this much effort into a capitalised pronoun.
does it take that much effort?
does it hurt anyone?

i dont think i could truthfully answer yes to either of them.
go with the flow, its part of christianity for some people, entertain them.

Perception is reality. Whatever it is that you believe is absolutely the truest thing you will ever know.

I like to use a quote from Hillsong United, a worship band from Australia:

"And I don't need to see it to believe it
I don't need to see it to believe it
Cause I can't shake this
Fire deep inside my heart."


^That's basically how I 'explain' God. Sorry if it doesn't use enough logic but I personally do not believe that God can be explained. He is too great, too strong, too awesome, too fatihful to explain. He just is. Sorry.

Edited by Top Gun, 06 August 2009 - 03:04 PM.

Or he is just non-existent. He just isn't.

eh, tactful.

Or he is just non-existent. He just isn't.

how can you prove/justify that?