General Chat / GOD

hhmmm, it was? Hasn't everyone had these thoughts? Or do people just coast through life, lost in an endless desert and refusing to look at the map because they choose not to find the way? Guess they feel they are OKAY. The next day they die. Then what? They believe they just rot in the ground? Why did you even live? 'Cause it was all meaningless. You just die and never have a single thought or emotion again with everything thought or feeling in life lost and gone. It was worthless. Though you have fancied much more nonsense than GOD. Funny how you believe in GOD, read his book, and everything makes sense. Don't listen to people who give their own interpretation. It's there for YOU, personally. You can hear the word of GOD speaking to YOU. Though I guess that bores most people... lost in an endless desert.

Edited by FantastiCo, 02 August 2009 - 11:35 AM.

Hasn't everyone had these thoughts? Or do people just coast through life, lost in an endless desert and refusing to look at the map because they choose not to find the way?

Ever thought that there might just be another map out there? It might eventually lead you to the same place, but the markings are different.

what he said

Can't believe everything works. Though that one book explains all of this perfectly clear, we can't believe that, cause we think we're smarter than GOD.

For what it's worth, quite a few of us who don't follow Christianity have, in fact, read the bible. (This includes me.) "Perfectly clear" is being very, very generous. The bible contradicts itself on a number of occasions. There's no way to utilize the bible as a guide to live unless one interprets it one way or another.

As for why everything works: if it didn't, we wouldn't be here. The fact that the end product (you, me, and the rest of the universe) exists in its current state tells us nothing about it's creation (either biblical or scientific or some chimera of the two) except that we came to exist. It's completely irrelevant to the question of God and religion.

Also, (re: post #21) what meaning life has is not given to us through religion or science. Meaning has no objective measure. It's your own, subjective feeling regarding your life. What happens to us when we die doesn't (or at least, shouldn't) dictate whether the life was meaningful or not. You can follow the rules laid down in the bible to the letter and live a wasted life. Or you can ignore the bible entirely and still live a great and meaningful life, with consequences felt well after your death. Or vice versa.

It seems to me that what you're trying to discuss is philosophy, not religion. Only the religion's in the way.

-ACE

As much as I'd love to discuss religion and my opposition to it, I choose not to. Why? For fear that Kevin might see this and ruin it for me and everyone else by turning it into a steaming pile of spamshit. Yeah, I just invented a new word. Spamshit. Start using it, people.

As much as I'd love to discuss religion and my opposition to it, I choose not to. Why? For fear that Kevin might see this and ruin it for me and everyone else by turning it into a steaming pile of spamshit. Yeah, I just invented a new word. Spamshit. Start using it, people.

What, exactly, was the purpose of this post then?

-ACE

^I think religion is a funny thing to be opposed to. Nobody forces you into it, so if you don't find it beneficial to you, you can ignore it. For instance, I think something like Scientology is rather stupid, but I'm not opposed to it because it doesn't effect me in any way.

As for God, sure I believe in the existance of God. Why not? Nothing can prove or disprove that he exists, but sometimes I think you've just got to make a leap of faith and believe in something bigger and greater than what you see in front of you.

The thing that bothers me is how so many atheists (those who deny the existance of any higher being) have this self-righteousness about them, and see people who believe in God as some form of weaker being that needs something to believe in in order to shield them from the real world and provide a meaning for life. I certainly won't call myself an intellectual, but I like to think of myself as a smart person who can think for themself. I'm certainly not weak-minded, and I'm not force-fed ideas of life and salvation. I think about these things myself, and to be honest, it all just makes sense to me.

Now religion is a whole different discussion. Personally, I'm Catholic, but I'm not gonna sit around and condemn everyone to hell like some jackasses that give us all a bad name. What do I know? I'm just one person of the billions that have walked this Earth. If there's one thing I could say, it would be to please not form your opinions on religion based off of a handful of people. It would be like me saying "I hate black people," because an African American man stole my car (hypothetically of course lol). And I'm sure many of you who are atheist would take offense to me calling you self-righteous. I've met a ton of atheists who are, and I've met a ton who are really great people. You kind of just need to see religion like that. Be open-minded enough to realize that what you percieve as religion may, in fact, not be.

And that leads me to my last point, which is sort of a rant, so I apologize in advance. Why has it become the "hip" thing in today's society as of late to be a secular, liberal-thinking atheist? I wrote a research paper about this in my first year of college, and some of what I found was very interesting. I feel like people think that in order to be a down-to-earth person, you can't believe in God, and that somehow Religion constrains "liberal thinking." What is liberal thinking? Pro choice? Gay rights? There's nothing radical here. So many people love to view themselves as radicals and rebellions to the format of society we have lived in for so long. To those of you who I'm referring to, get over yourselves. You're one in the crowd. Everyone is one in the crowd. One of my favorite quotes of all time is from a pretty strange source, Alice Cooper: "Drinking beer is easy. Trashing your hotel room is easy. But being a Christian, that's a tough call. That's real rebellion!"

I didn't want to type a lot here, but I've decided to make this my be all and end all response to all debates on religion or God. In summary, I believe in God and I'm a Catholic. I don't condemn those who are not, and those who are not should not condemn me. The end.

we need more thinkers like you in the world man^

we can't prove god is there, so we just have to have faith, and religion is about faith.

All I have to say is "God" is anybody/anything you want him/it to be. It/he could be a human, a tree, a mystical orb, whatever. The point is, unless you are Atheist, you believe in a God(s). And we may not be able to prove whether there is a God, but that's why we call it "believing in God" and "faith."

Edited by ice³, 03 August 2009 - 09:56 PM.

we need more thinkers like you in the world man^

lol, thanks dude! But I think this world would be pretty scary if more people thought like me haha

My issue is organized religion. Believing something and being part of a group just because your parents and friends have told you so. I have no problems with people who believe in a higher power or are religious, but when someone tells me that they don't like something because, "it's wrong" or "the bible says so," It bothers me. It just seems like the spreading of like ideas through organized religion just strangles any creative and individual thinking that could have come from so many.

And now onto my rant... I think the reason for it being "hip" to be atheist is partly because it is becoming more acceptable for people to come out as atheist or different. It is still considered taboo in most places though. There is still the stereotype that being atheist means that one is immoral, does drugs, is an alcoholic, etc. I know when I tell people I'm atheist, they look at me with that "omg you can't say that word out loud!" face. I shouldn't feel ashamed or bad about what I most closely classify myself as.

zburns we have one of those religious jackasses on THESE forums.... kevin...

And you know what's fucking funny. AND IT'S REALLY FUCKING FUNNY??? Almost every religious person I know seems to think they are better than ME because they all form together and say that I'm stupid for not believing in their stupid fucking made up god. ALMOST everyone thinks their beliefs are better than others beliefs, so don't try to place it on only us atheists.

^ and thats why i hate when people generalize all 'religious' people as crazy lunatics trying to force feed their religion down other people's throats and condemning them when they're wrong.
granted, they are wrong in what they do, as in their focus is on judging others, rather than loving them.
Jesus always loved, and always encouraged others to love, not to judge.
and it seems to me these days, a whole lot of people who call themselves 'christians' are throwing away the love aspect of it and skipping straight ahead to the 'we're better than him, because he doesnt believe what we believe' idea.
its sad dude.
its because of people like that, that a lot of christians today are percieved by the secular society as these crazy old fashioned judgemental lunatics as opposed to the christ-like christians they were called to be.
now, i am not judging any of these people, or anyone who has felt condemned because of their beliefs (or lack of them).
i'm just simply stating that a lot of christians tend to be misjudged today because of certain people who say they are christians, but yet put other people down and judge them for who they are, or what they're not.

the whole aspect of christianity is centered on being like Christ, whose main focus was love.
i know many of you feel like you may have been the victim of discrimination by christians because of your beliefs or lack of such, but i just want you to know that not all christians are like that.
i'm not like that.
and i really hope that you guys can understand that, and where i'm coming from.
so while you may still feel some resentment towards these people, or maybe even me, just know that not all of us are the same.

again, i hope this hasnt offended anyone, and i'm really sorry if it has.
i just felt like i needed to reply, and express more of whats been on my heart lately:]

Alright, Level, let's not get carried away. Peaceful, insightful, open-minded debate is what we need. Like what In:Cities and zburns posted. Very nice, guys.

I'll participate in this discussion as a show of good-faith. HOWEVER, if Kevin rears his ugly head, or if this turns into a flame war, I'm out.

EDIT: Oh, and ACE, my first post was to introduce my new word: Shitspam. Though that wasn't the original intention... :' />



I think I'm an atheist for two reasons:

1) I'm curious. I need to know things. I enjoy learning new things, unless I find such a thing to be uninteresting or not useful. (Like basketball. I could give two shits about that game. I don't even know what "traveling" is.) Thus, I'm not satisfied with "faith". I can't for the life of me accept the idea that God is the be-all and end-all. There has to be more. The classic atheist come-back is the old "If God created us, then who created God?" question. Even if there was diffinitive and undisputable proof that the universe came from the big bang, I'd still want to know what came before the big bang. (Though I do like the idea that the universe will collapse on itself in trillions of years, thus resulting in an implosion known as "Big Bang 2". But still, that can't go on forever. There has to be more.)

2) Religion is very confusing. I can't seem to wrap my head around most of the concepts. I'm still plugging away at the bible (somewhere in Numbers can't remember the exact spot), but I always refer back to Genesis when in a debate with a person of religious persuasion. It says in the bible that on the sixth day, God created people. But then after the seventh day (the day he rested, resulting in the fact that it only took God six days to make the earth, not seven as is commonly preached), God creates Adam. He is refered to as the first person on earth. What happened to the other people? Is there a pre-flood that was written out? And if Adam and Eve were the only two people, where in the hell did Cain and Seth get all their wives? And God said that the first person to see Cain would kill him. So how in the hell did he have a kid in the first place? Budding? I doubt it. This is all very confusing, and makes no sense. Let's assume that the Bible is not literal and was merely written for the purpose of instilling good morals into people. If that is indeed the case, then they could have left a lot of shit out.

And don't get me started on God. He loves you, but if you break any one of his 10 rules, you'll burn in hell forever. But he really does love you. But if you break any one of those rules, hit's gonna hit the fan! But it's okay, he loves you. (Confusing, isn't it?) Not to mention all the rules that came about in Deuteronomy. I find it hard to believe that any Orthodox Jew/Christian/Catholic/Muslim/What-Have-You could live a normal and sane life.


I'm not out to extinguish Christians. That's the last thing on my mind. If believing in an imaginary guy makes you happy, then fine. To each his own, I guess. But stay of politics, please. I don't think we should kick religion to the curb in Washington, but I don't think that religion should be considered when running the town, state, or country. Think of this: Most stores are closed on Sunday. Why is that? Is it because Sunday is "the Lord's day"? You know, if people actually worked on Sunday, they'd wouldn't need to work as hard any of the other days of the week. And it would allow lazy atheists to get some shopping done. Six days isn't enough if you procrastonate like I do. And how come religious organizations don't have to pay taxes? You know, if we started taxing churches, then maybe the US wouldn't be in such an ecomic rut. There is a church being built down the road from my house. It is of modern design (no steeple, no stained glass) and they have an electronic billboard set up that states when mass will be held when the church is finally done. (It also tells me that God loves me as I'm driving by.) "Really?" I say to myself. There are starving kids in Africa and that's where the collection plate money is going? If that's the case then we should tax the shit out those guys!



I could go on like this forever, and this is only a topical rant (topical in this case meaning "on the surface"). I've yet to really rebuke anybody's claims. I'd rather not. I'd rather this remain a peaceful discussion. But if you'd like to debate the finer points, then feel free to start.



That ends my rant. Congratulations are in order if you read the entire thing.

Edited by FullMetal, 04 August 2009 - 12:13 AM.

I have a lot to say here, I hope you will read even though it is long.

Firstly, religion can and will leave a bad taste is many people's mouths. Religion is in fact a set of rules; and as I was growing up I sure didn't appreciate the rules that my parents had. Clean my room, take my plate to the kitchen, do my homework, etc. Looking back, these rules were beneficial to both my parents and to me. Since I was required to help around the house growing up, I can now take responsibility for my own house and possessions.

I've recently been looking at religions all over the world. There are so many differing beliefs, and everyone thinks that they are right. I think the intentions of these religions are good, but things get twisted quickly as people are quick to point the finger when people "break the rules." It is far easier to see fault in others than yourself. My parents made rules to help me grow up, but if I saw my sister not doing something that she was supposed to, I was quick to point out her flaw.

In studying different religions, something stands out to me. Buddhism is based around Karma; what you do in life dictates what you will be born again as in the next life. If you live a good life, you will move up. If you live a bad life, you will move down. To achieve salvation, you live one great life after another great life until you get to the top. Islam has "5 pillars of Islam" which are 1: stating that God is the only God, 2: praying 5 times a day facing the city of Mecca, 3: Giving to the poor, 4: fasting, and 5: a pilgrimage to Mecca. I won't go on with other religions, but what stands out to me is that everything is based on actions; if you do this, you gain salvation. American Christians have mostly the same view; if I do "good things" then I am a "good person." If I am a "good person," I'm going to Heaven.



When I open an RCT park, I look at it as if there was someone who created it. I marvel at how creative the creator of this park is. How ridiculous would it be to think that it just came to be? Even in billions of years, how would something so complex just come to be? Obviously you see where I'm going with this analogy... When I look at the earth, when I look at how the human body works, when I look at the complexity of a single celled organism I am in awe of the one who created it. I think it takes more "faith" to believe that it just happened in billions of years. I'm not ignoring science, in fact it fascinates me. When I look at how amazing it is, I think how amazing God is.

Do you know what this changes if we have a creator? I remember a thread here at NE recently about purpose. A random bang and a life void of purpose makes me sad. What am I living for? If I was created, I was created for a purpose. I completely believe that I was created to have a relationship with my creator; a relationship with God. I believe that sin keeps me from from this relationship, because God is perfect. I believe that I cannot live a perfect life, I fail constantly. I believe that Jesus Christ was sent by God to earth to take the place for my sin. He lived a perfect life, never giving into sin. As such, I was set free from sin and I am now free to have a relationship with the God that created life. Unlike other religions that are based around doing good, my relationship is based on the fact that I cannot be perfect. The reason that I do "good" is not to gain my salvation, it is to show Jesus how much I love Him; to tell him thank you with my life.

John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

That is the basis of my beliefs. There are many complexities, but it all comes down to that. Can I prove that there is a God that created me? I would say that the complexities of creation point to Him. I would argue that "faith" is not just blind belief without proof, but that faith is first believing, and then experiencing the proof through your life.

1) I'm curious. I need to know things. I enjoy learning new things, unless I find such a thing to be uninteresting or not useful. (Like basketball. I could give two shits about that game. I don't even know what "traveling" is.) Thus, I'm not satisfied with "faith". I can't for the life of me accept the idea that God is the be-all and end-all. There has to be more. The classic atheist come-back is the old "If God created us, then who created God?" question. Even if there was diffinitive and undisputable proof that the universe came from the big bang, I'd still want to know what came before the big bang. (Though I do like the idea that the universe will collapse on itself in trillions of years, thus resulting in an implosion known as "Big Bang 2". But still, that can't go on forever. There has to be more.)

I appreciate your honesty and your curiosity. You shouldn't just believe whatever you are told. You should investigate the evidence and make an educated decision based on your experience, while keeping an open mind to the things you hear.

And don't get me started on God. He loves you, but if you break any one of his 10 rules, you'll burn in hell forever. But he really does love you. But if you break any one of those rules, hit's gonna hit the fan! But it's okay, he loves you. (Confusing, isn't it?) Not to mention all the rules that came about in Deuteronomy. I find it hard to believe that any Orthodox Jew/Christian/Catholic/Muslim/What-Have-You could live a normal and sane life.

In my previous post, I said that religion is a set of rules. Some rules my parents made when I was younger I didn't understand until later. For example, maybe I couldn't watch 'scary' movies when I was 6 because I would have been completely terrified and probably wet the bed. That rule is easy enough to understand now, but when I was a kid it just completely sucked. God doesn't just get enjoyment in condemning people that break the rules, in fact the reason that Jesus came to earth and died was to make a way to God for the rule breakers. As for the Deuteronomy rules, the Hebrews were living in a time before that way through Jesus was created.

Matthew 5: 17-20 Jesus said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

So what does that mean - absolute punishment and death for anyone who isn't 100% void of all sin and is completely perfect in every way? Yes. Am I 100% perfect? No. And so Jesus lived the perfect life and died in my place.

There is a church being built down the road from my house. It is of modern design (no steeple, no stained glass) and they have an electronic billboard set up that states when mass will be held when the church is finally done. (It also tells me that God loves me as I'm driving by.) "Really?" I say to myself. There are starving kids in Africa and that's where the collection plate money is going? If that's the case then we should tax the shit out those guys!

I think that anything that man is involved with will contain errors. Wasteful spending is a shame when compared to where the money could go. But, what is money to God? He could provide money, or just provide food to those kids in Africa; in fact He is providing food to children in Africa right now through people who are going there in His name. In the world before sin, before mankind decided that he didn't need God, there was no death and there was no suffering. So who is at fault for the starving children, the steepleless church with the electronic billboard? Yes, and it is also mine.

That ends my rant. Congratulations are in order if you read the entire thing. party.gif

Thanks, and congratulations to you for writing it!

But, what is money to God? He could provide money, or just provide food to those kids in Africa; in fact He is providing food to children in Africa right now through people who are going there in His name.

That's another thing that gets me. If God is so mighty and so all powerful, why doesn't he just do it himself? Wouldn't that be a whole lot easier than telling people to do it for him? What about all the people that don't do it?

Now, call me crazy, but I refuse to donate anything to anyone unless I do it in person. I don't put money in those "Find a Cure" jars because I know that that money will not help find a cure for [insert terminal disease here]. It just goes into making different drugs that temporarily cover up the symptoms of the disease, resulting in a need to purchase more medication. Think about it: If every disease was cured, then a vital chunk of the economy would dissappear. I like to use this personal example as well: I've cystic fibrosis all my life, and will probably have it until I die at the age of 50 (the optomistic life expectancy). And in my 18 years, we've gone from Walkmans to tiny iPods, but I still take the same medication. It has the exact same effects, only its a bit more powerful becuase I'm a bit older. All money does is help fund more tests, more drugs, and more money that I'm going to have to pay in the long run.

So, does not giving make me a bad person? I say no, because there are people with worse intentions on the other side. If I don't give to them, they won't fuck up my life any further. I'm helping solve the problem, if you want to think of it that way. What does this have to do with kids in Africa? Well, let's say you donate five dollars to a group of religious people who are going to go to Africa and give a village food. They pick the village that deserves their help most. How are they going to get to Africa? Well, they're probably going to use some of that money you donated to buy plane tickets. I didn't just fork over five dollars so you could buy plane tickets, damnit!

If my senior English teacher taught me anything, it was to question everything. Don't take any shit from anybody until you know exactly what's going on. And if you think something's not right, stand up for what you think is.

What's strange about religion, is there is so many conflics going on, like crusades as an example. Most people say that something is evil or believe that god will protect us, but God does not interfere with our lives, he/she lets us live and make our own choices. God doesn't control thing, he/she creates them, and we make our own decisions, otherwise the world would be boring, perfect, and flawless and emotionless.

That's another thing that gets me. If God is so mighty and so all powerful, why doesn't he just do it himself? Wouldn't that be a whole lot easier than telling people to do it for him? What about all the people that don't do it?

Life's about the journey, not the destination. If everything in the world were handed to us on a silver platter by some higher power, where would we be as a society?