RCT Discussion / RCTModified isn't illegal!

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You will all remember that thread that I started, it is now locked, so I can't react in it. But Posix you are wrong.

Please look at this.

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I also discussed this with the RCTAvenged RCTModified team, and they are saying the same thing as me. That it is NOT ILLEGAL

Although modifying began among hard-core hackers, it's not illegal. In fact, mods are often encouraged by game producers.

Chris Sawyer never encouraged gamers to write mods/trainers or whatever for Rollercoaster Tycoon. He even gave an interview where he pointed out that he does not like the fact, that people use his game and change it with the beast trainer and others.

RCTModified however is not a common mod. A mod is an addition to the game (i.e. objects). What RCTModified does, is taking parts of the game - copyright protected - and changing them.

What should have been done here is ask for permission. Chris Sawyer made TTD open source and some people are legally changing the game code.
Rollercoaster Tycoon however is not open source!


Apart from the legal facts RCTModified is the most needless tool ever created for Rollercoaster Tycoon. Everything RCTModified does can be done with 8cars/sob.



Technically the drexler patch is illegal aswell as it changes parts of the rct.exe file, sothat trainers are not being detected by the game anymore.
There is nothing NE can do about it however, as not supporting the drexler patch means deleting almost all of the LL parks, which form the history of this site.



Last but not least the management of this site can do what they want to do. It is their site and their decision if they want to support certain game versions, modifications etc.

Hey Magnus.
i don't really want to get into this argument but just to point out OpenTTD is just the same

Due to the fact OpenTTD was made by reverse engineering the original game’s binaries, the legal status is contested. Fortunately, Atari (who own Transport Tycoon Deluxe) have not complained.

I Believe TTD was never made open source.

Magnus (and posix, since most of what I've got to say applies to him), external .dat files are not necessarily subject to the same rules as the .exe itself.

In any case, the legal argument is moot. RCTM is no less legal than the Drexler patch, so to ban it on that grounds is ridiculous.

If you're going to refuse to support it on grounds of being useless or subverting work ethic by making invisible shit easier or whatever the hell your problem is with it, so be it. IMO, that's an incredibly egotistical view to take, but you don't need to drag a stupid legal argument in to back yourself up.

-ACE

OpenTTD isn't made opensource by chris sawyer. people just remade the game with C++ and made that open source so it could be modded. Doctor J once tried this for rct2 but he found so much resistance in the community that he quited that project and went on to TPB3D. No the rctmodified team has found a way to mod simple things in rct2 and are working on more complex things. If you are going to refuse this new developement in the community you will probally see people leave. it's the same as with the codex trainer ... at first there was some resistance to it also but soon people saw how handy it could be. it's true that atm everything except the interface changes can be done with hex editing but these options where merely tests ... rct modified will go way further if it find some assistance in the community, by accepting sv7 parks to NE you probally help speeding up this process.

This post was made by the RCTModified Development Team

I just looked up the facts about TTD. It is not open source. Sorry for the cofusion about it.

It does not change anything about the legal issues about rctmodified however.
Cena, would you please be so kind to correct your statemants about rctmodified being a legal modification of Rollercoaster Tycoon. It obviously is not.


About the comparision to the drexler patch:
ACEfanatic, you are right, there is no big difference between rctmodified and the drexler patch. Both break current copyright laws.
rctmodified does not only change copyright protected data files, but also the rct2.exe and distributes a no-CD version of rollercoaster tycoon.
However, you cannot hold posix and geewhzz responsible for supporting parks created with the drexler patch. Both of them had no influence on the decision back when it was made and removing all the old files would mean deleting most of NE's history.


To the RCTModified Development Team:
Whoever you are (apart from JJ), letting someone else speak in your name ...
Threatening NE that people might leave this site when rctmodified is not supported sounds a little ridiculous, especially when there is no other rctfansite any close to the level of NE.
The main problem I have with rctmodified is, that you have to download a 50Mb file and install files on your computer. Especially for new members it will not be easy to find out how to open parks created with rctmodified and you cannot expect everybody to install rctmodified. This also is the major difference between trainers, like the codex trainer, and rctmodified. Everybody can view parks that have been edited with trainers.
If you really want to do something good for this community work on a new trainer, like an rct2 version of the codex trainer. As you stated above, everything that can be done with rctmodified can be done by hexediting.


Just for the record, I am speaking for myself here and not for the management of this site.

Oh sod it i said i wasn't going to get involved but what the hell
I dont use RCT2 much so it wont affect me either way.

Im kind of in a grey area on this. I dont mind the use of the game but i dont think its right for NE yet

I use OpenTTD all the time so i cant really have a problem with RCTM so in terms of the programs actual use i have no problem really. As long as it requires you to have the original version to install like OpenTTD does.
OpenTTD has improved the game so so much its crazy. it has extended the games life above and beyond what i expected. RCTM may not do much now but with developments it could do.

Now as far as its use on NE goes then i dont feel right now is really the correct time. I mean for a start Posix has made it clear he doesn't support the idea and as he is the boss his word is final
However if in the future it is taken up elsewhere and other sites gain an advantage because of this then maybe then would be the right time.

Threatening NE that people might leave this site when rctmodified is not supported sounds a little ridiculous, especially when there is no other rctfansite any close to the level of NE.

That's not exactly a threat is it. its making a (slightly badly worded) point. and he's right to a certain degree. but only if RCTM takes off. Which is yet to be shown.

However, you cannot hold posix and geewhzz responsible for supporting parks created with the drexler patch. Both of them had no influence on the decision back when it was made and removing all the old files would mean deleting most of NE's history.

I agree with this though. Although you have to hold some responsibility yourself. If you yourself use Drexler to build parks or even OpenTTD then your reasoning against RCTM is always going to be partly flawed.

Now in my opinion you RCTM guys should carry on with your project (and the best of luck). I may very well use it if its taken up elsewhere like CF or TPR. But i wouldn't hand your hopes on NE using it any time soon i'm afraid.

oké magnus let me get this as clear as possible.
I left the community a while ago because I was done with these kind of things. People who have no idea what they are talking about but still blame people for doing it wrong or people who do know what they talk about but give false information to others so they seem smarter. Also the whole way the community was going didn't work with my view of how the game was to be played and how a forum should help with this.
I tried to keep away from the fora, but it only took 3 days before there where questions on dutch boards which couldn't be answered by the people there. so I asked some other people to post the answer for me, hoping they would learn from it and soon I could leave completely.
Apperently there is just not enough knowledge in the community to answer even the simpeles questions about the game (or the people who have the knowledge think they shouldn't give the answer "because it gives away to much").
So after some time I was answering still al the questions but trough other people like cena. Now I promises him to help him with making some tut's etc and I promised JJ to help with the further developement of rct modified, cause I feel these two things can help the community the best. a year ago I wouldn't say that cause I still was to stupid to think people posted screens to get tips and do something with it and grow. but I finally understand now this is no longer the case, and the only reason people show screens is to boost theire ego and get fame.........

Now back to the case here. The rct modified developement team is me and JJ , there are others helping also, but most of the research is done by us. We still think this will help the most. This is helped by some recent discoveries we've made which give us more things to do (which mostly can't be done by trainers).
Now we're talking about trainers you talk about a intresting point. I've contacted about every "known" good programmer in the community to ask if I could help with theire or a new trainer. but all the programmers in the community seem to have dissapaired or to busy. Now you might think programming is easy but the few things I've tried failed nicely so I chose to take another way of using my knowledge by introducing hex editing. Altough it was accepted with chears almost nobody used it, because it was just to hard to use for the avarage player. That's why we went to rct modified. We are working on making it as user friendly (by using patch files instead of complete files and using webinstallers etc), but because nobody wants to help cause everytime we try to promote or something like that some people keep saying it is crap. These people are the people who have established a name in the community and which other people turn to for an example, and because they keep turning their back to something they dont even understand we are forced to find out everything our self.

Now I want to correct you on some parts. If you really want to use rct2 to its full advantage and get rid of some of the wel known error trappers you could make a dexler patch for rct2 also cause there still is a trainer security in rct2, but nobody ever took the time to get it out of theire cause by the time the first trainers where made we found no restriction, by now we know better causer theire are known enough restriction with hacking. most of them could be bypassed by removing those securities, but who should do that? can you?
I believe people who haven't downloaded the dexler patch for LL aren't able to open parks which are hacked in, so does this really make it that much diffrent from modified?
I don't know why you think it will be hard for new people to find out how to open a sv7 file. cause if you have modified installed it will be automaticly used to open them, and if we include a simple readme in the file to say you need rct modified the problem is solved.
You say no rct site in anywhere near to NE, but have you ever considered to point that most people come to a community to share theire things, and if this isn't accepted they might just decide to build only for them self like it should be and take no further notice of the community, you might be in the community to long to see the possebility of making something just for your self and don't share it, but believe me it is possible and enough people do it.
Now I've told my story again I'm gone again and probally wont be seen here for a while, so if people missed me they know now why. altough there are some more things which I don't like about the community I can live with it. I can also live with the fact that I offered my help with all possible things on many sites and was put aside as soon as I got some troubles with my study and said I wouldn't be able to keep as active as I where for a while. But I couldn't live with the way the community was changing.
If I think the community is ready for me again I probally will be theire again to show my stuff and get feedback from others who share the same enthiosiastics as me. but for now I try to help modified and try to get some knowledge into the community trough other channels but that's it. so you can reply to this post in all possible ways but probally you wont get a reply (at least not on the forums).
No I hope the misconception about the "letting someone else speak in your name " and I hope that's settled and wont put a blame on rct modified.
and one last thing I would like to say is theire where plans al ready to inform chris sawyer about this project, we only wanted to wait till a version which really added some new things to the game before informing him cause else he might not see the point in it like most of you seem to do.

I greet you all.

note: I used the "you" in this post a bit confusing, mostly I just talking to who ever reads this, so if you feel attacked magnus, don't be unless all the things stated in this post are true about you.

Even though I am slightly part of the Modified team, I couldn't give a shit whether the files would be accepted or not, at the end of the day its up to the site owner, and if the site owner doesnt want to accept them then they dont want to accept them.

I don't think there was any reason to post this topic as this is just going to cause more aggravation between certain members and their websites and in my opinion I dont see why the two sites cant just run alongside each other without the conflict in between.

Louis!

Doctor J tried to make RCT2 and open source, and all said no we don't want that?, any link to that, because i cant see any bad about making it a open source...

Haven't read the whole thread, as I'm leaving for practice as soon as i post this, but-

If there are no legal issues then I see no reason not to accept sv7 files. If "the management" takes issue with it then maybe they should put it to public vote.

I will say that posix's post was rather upsetting and enlightening.

Even though I am slightly part of the Modified team, I couldn't give a shit whether the files would be accepted or not, at the end of the day its up to the site owner, and if the site owner doesnt want to accept them then they dont want to accept them.

I don't think there was any reason to post this topic as this is just going to cause more aggravation between certain members and their websites and in my opinion I dont see why the two sites cant just run alongside each other without the conflict in between.

Louis!

amen.

if this turns into some rctm yes or no bitchfight i'll close this topic, too.
and i don't think ttd is opensource. i think it's just freeware. as in, you don't have to buy it to legally play it. but, you may NOT edit or alter the game in any way. and rct2 isn't even freeware yet and possibly won't be for many years to come.
the drexler patch could possibly be considered illegal, too. however, it's been rooted in our parkmaking culture for many years. and, it doesn't hurt the game ethics as it just gets rid of chris sawyer's "do not use trainers" scare tactics as in error trapper or fake "invalid data" message.

amen.

if this turns into some rctm yes or no bitchfight i'll close this topic, too.
and i don't think ttd is opensource. i think it's just freeware. as in, you don't have to buy it to legally play it. but, you may NOT edit or alter the game in any way. and rct2 isn't even freeware yet and possibly won't be for many years to come.
the drexler patch could possibly be considered illegal, too. however, it's been rooted in our parkmaking culture for many years. and, it doesn't hurt the game ethics as it just gets rid of chris sawyer's "do not use trainers" scare tactics as in error trapper or fake "invalid data" message.

Posix, really. What are these "game ethics" you speak of?

RCTM has one useful purpose, which is the ability to easily make ride entrances/exits/stations invisible without resorting to hacking. That's all. It doesn't build your park for you. All it does is make a small detail easier.

You often talk about having a vision, and then creating it in the game. Why be so picky about the technique one uses to do that? This community's too damn small for elitist attitudes like that.

-ACE

(For the record, I also think that if you really, really don't want to support it, that's your prerogative. I'm just curious about your reasoning.)

I'm not going to get into the legallity of the issue, but I will say that Sawyer needs to get the sand out of his vagina. If it weren't for things like Drexler, Modified, Beast, SoB, 8Cars, etc, the game would've been dead five years ago. He should be thanking us for keeping his game alive in the community because when he sold out to Atari, he fucked himself.

That's all I have to say.

is TTD even freeware yet? I did a quick search and couldn't find anything. I'm just trying to prevent the spread of misinformation.
I reckon a discussion like this is healthy for the community as a whole as long as it doesn't get out of hand.

Its Geewizz and Posix's decision if they want to support RCTM. and its clear they don't.
If i ever use RCT2 properly i will post here
If i ever use RCTM i will just post elsewhere.
simple

ok since everyone is talking about the legality of this.

I went and searched the user manual and copied this from it


Read it as you must. But it clearly says you may NOT decompile, modify, reverse engineer, disassemble or otherwise reproduce the Software

Edited by riven3d, 23 October 2008 - 04:56 PM.

Can you point us to the direction of said interview with Sawyer directly mentioning the Beast Trainer and what not?

Riven i dont think that's the problem we ALL do that already with Drexler to a certain extent. Whatever way you look at it both are illegal really. its just where people draw the line.

Just a question about RCTM... since you're going in and editing crazy stuff, what's the possibility of getting rid of the cap on scenery/ride items in the sandbox mode?

amen.

Yup. But it isn't anything between sites anyways.

ok since everyone is talking about the legality of this.

It (in general) only really matters if you didn't need the original to play or if i was selling it or something. (Not always, it depends on the person/company)

Just a question about RCTM... since you're going in and editing crazy stuff, what's the possibility of getting rid of the cap on scenery/ride items in the sandbox mode?

Levis has tried many a times but it doesn't look likely...