General Chat / Medicinal Marijuana

yea, thats 100% bullshit trav.
only an idiot will blame weed for them trying heroin.

It is bullshit, cos I know many, many people who use it regularly, and don't feel the need for harder drugs.

But that is actually the main reason why nobody knows what class to put it in (This is in Britain).

http://en.wikipedia....way_drug_theory

Yeah, I know this gateway theory, but if you end up in the harddrugs environment you usually weren't in the right environment to begin with en you would end up there regardless of you used soft drugs before.

I react on the part of this topic about "medicinal Marijuana", so I'll skip the hot debate on the other forms of allowing/forbidding it...(which as such is interesting enough, but other time for me then...)

- If something works as a "medicine" and the advantages of taking that medicine weigh up to the disadvantages/dangers of it, I cannot see ANY normal logical/human reason to not allow that (legally)

- using Marijuana as a painkiller with certain illnesses, while many other things don't help in that case, should be a great thing in the cases where that helps...:

- it's utmost cheap to produce (like 10 to 200 times as cheap compared to all non-helping medicines produced by the pharmacuetical giants), it does have next-to-none negative side-effects (which ALL of the other "official" pills DO have in one way or the other, and often with a lot of side-effects, and most often with a nasty kind of physical addition to it).

- Every government/law that forbids to use Marijuana as a painkiller (on prescription), imho is no better than the medieval practice of landlords to deny their farmers any chance of living like human beings.

- Why do they do it then, make it so "unacceptable" in most countries, ??

......................

- First of course....because of the whole "hype" about "drugs" and how dangerous they are.

(they don't tell you that "normal" medicines supplied on prescription by your doctor in most cases also are "drugs", with, in most cases svere and unwanted side-effects...)

Those "prescribed medicines" however are manufactured and distributed by the pharmacy-giants.
And yes, they have to make a lot of costs for research.
But also.........their profit-marges are unbelievably sky-high, and their power is equally unbelievable too....
So there's something at stake for them....

- Now imagine, a herb that can be grown in your back-garden in most places all over the world, and that in quite some cases works as well (or better......) than an expensive medicine......that's a threat... not only to the governments that want to prove how "dedicated" they are to the mental safety of you and your kids (wish they did not start wars to prove that....), but especially to the pharmacy-giants that fear to miss some income if other things than their pills could be used.

Their lobby, money and influence is immensely strong..... (and it's all behind the screens...), and they will make sure that nothing can take over or deny them any crumb of income....

When your (family's) medical specialist is having that 4th trip this year to an exotic Isle or that magic new car, it for sure is not just because of his/her income..but in 50% there's a pharmacy-giant inviting him and family for a free congress on Barbados or Shri-Lanka or wherever (as long as it's luxury and exotic).

Maybe you have a parent, granny, uncle or aunt that has to use some "innocent and accepted" official medicines...?
Someone with too high blood-pressure for instance?? (very common in the western world)

Did you ever examine the side-effects of the medicines prescribed for that one??
Did you ever realise that people using them cannot stop with them if they wanted because of the physical backlash and side-effects (sometimes even dangers) that stopping aprubtly would give......

And that would not be "physical addiction".....???
And that would not be "dangerous".....

So, this just is one tiny example from the thousands that are available,
but for your thesis, take these things into account, I would say:

Politicians need it to radiate the " I will care for your family and religious values and physical/mental safety" ( so "no I am not going to forbid this or that which you will object too much too, but I look for easy targets...")

And powerfull lobbies in the world will behind your back make sure that their profits will stay untouched and only grow, at any cost regardless of human well-being........
Too many interests involved.

No, of course it's not just "black and white", or only simple, many more things are involved, on the positive as well as the negative side. We all have gained a lot by some medicines that now are available and save lives, or make the quality of that lives much better (whether that is for HIV-infected persons or Malaria or Diabetes or whatever), but we also pay a price; in money and by not getting the best for some purposes because of the wanted profit of some giants...

May be just some things to think about/search for ?

Wishing you great work on your thesis, and success!!

Emergo

P.S.: would be very interested in what you did ad how it works out....

When your (family's) medical specialist is having that 4th trip this year to an exotic Isle or that magic new car, it for sure is not just because of his/her income..but in 50% there's a pharmacy-giant inviting him and family for a free congress on Barbados or Shri-Lanka or wherever (as long as it's luxury and exotic).

Doesn't happen anymore in the US. Since about 8 years ago the most doctors can get from drug reps is a meal and those pens.

If everything could be controlled so that doctors wouldn't help give people with a mental addiction to marijuana the drug, if it were legalized across the board, and if insurance plans wouldn't reimburse prescriptions of marijuana, I'd be all for it. All of those things will never always happen, though.

Also, haven't hydrocodone, oxycodone and other morphine based drugs gone generic? Wouldn't that be what marijuana would be replacing? Doesn't seem like too much of a loss of income to me, at least for the Pfizers and Mercs of the world.

Doesn't happen anymore in the US. Since about 8 years ago the most doctors can get from drug reps is a meal and those pens.

^ as I don't work there, I am not really up-to-date with what happens in US or " is supposed to be allowed"officially there".... the only thing I know about what happens in practice there is from what I hear from my psychiatrists-colleagues overthere, as well as what I know from my work here in Holland ....and of course, like with everything, there's a big gap and grey field between what is "allowed" (legally etc...) and how it is executed in daily life......But....ehhh.... from what I know from my American colleagues is absolutely the contrary to "Doesn't happen anymore in the US".....(lol!!)

If everything could be controlled so that doctors wouldn't help give people with a mental addiction to marijuana the drug, if it were legalized across the board, and if insurance plans wouldn't reimburse prescriptions of marijuana, I'd be all for it. All of those things will never always happen, though.

^ you may be right that it will " never" happen (though who knows...), but then that might not be because of the reason you mention: the majority of doctors is not wanting/willing to "give people with a mental addiction to marijuana the drug", at least not more than, or less than, that they on a daily basis are willing to give tons of people other drugs (= medicins) which those people are addicted to (and of which many are far and far more dangerous than cannabis (marijuana) is..... .
Malicious doctors?
No. Only the field of medicins (of which the majority are "drugs", with lots of unwanted side-effects as well as a big chance of getting, physically as well as mentally, "addicted" to them), is so huge that no practicing doctor that still wants to see at least 2 patients a day could ever invest the time to study what is best. So they sincerely do their best, and, like all human beings, have to rely on, and are influenced by, the ones who do the investigation/research (the medical/pharmaceutical giants) and what is officially made available, by laws and restrictions from politicians, all with their own hidden agenda's and interests.

Also, haven't hydrocodone, oxycodone and other morphine based drugs gone generic? Wouldn't that be what marijuana would be replacing?

^ No, I don't think so.

Some simple useful links, just to start with:

hydrocodone

Oxycodone

Cannabis

(If you ever want to dig into it - or have to write a thesis about it or so - compare side-effects, chances of addiction/abuse/deaths etc., and wonder, wonder, wonder....why some are "legal" and the other is not.............)

Emergo

[quote name='Emergo' post='399957' date='Apr 3 2008, 07:08 PM']as I don't work there, I am not really up-to-date with what happens in US or " is supposed to be allowed"officially there".... the only thing I know about what happens in practice there is from what I hear from my psychiatrists-colleagues overthere, as well as what I know from my work here in Holland ....and of course, like with everything, there's a big gap and grey field between what is "allowed" (legally etc...) and how it is executed in daily life......But....ehhh.... from what I know from my American colleagues is absolutely the contrary to "Doesn't happen anymore in the US".....(lol!!)[/quote]
I know that every 7 years in the US, Doctors have to take a test to remain certified and those are usually held in large cities. My father makes a trip out of it with my mom when that comes around, and that all comes out of our pockets. Also, medical conferences are held across the country to suit the 'furthering education' requirement of being a doctor, and again, not paid by drug reps... There's definitely some sleazy doctors out there.

Why can't people just play by the rules?

[quote name='Emergo' post='399957' date='Apr 3 2008, 07:08 PM']you may be right that it will " never" happen (though who knows...), but then that might not be because of the reason you mention: the majority of doctors is not wanting/willing to "give people with a mental addiction to marijuana the drug", at least not more than, or less than, that they on a daily basis are willing to give tons of people other drugs (= medicins) which those people are addicted to (and of which many are far and far more dangerous than cannabis (marijuana) is..... .
Malicious doctors?
No. Only the field of medicins (of which the majority are "drugs", with lots of unwanted side-effects as well as a big chance of getting, physically as well as mentally, "addicted" to them), is so huge that no practicing doctor that still wants to see at least 2 patients a day could ever invest the time to study what is best. So they sincerely do their best, and, like all human beings, have to rely on, and are influenced by, the ones who do the investigation/research (the medical/pharmaceutical giants) and what is officially made available, by laws and restrictions from politicians, all with their own hidden agenda's and interests.[quote]
I can see where you are coming from in the first paragraph, but seriously. Are you fucking kidding me??

First of all, I meant a mental addiction to the drug before it is prescribed. Doctors should never harbor people's mental addictions. There might become a physical addiction after it is prescribed, after all it is keeping them alive!

Second of all, everything you know about medicines is wrong. Doctors use their knowledge of drugs (and if they don't know everything down to the t they'll fucking look it up) and their knowledge of the patient to fucking save their ass and their patient's. They will weigh the side effects versus the benefits, the will do their best to serve their patients. Have you not heard of the Hippocratic oath? You make it sound like doctors are just pawns in a game, being coaxed into believing made up shit force fed to them by these two behemoth entities that are the government and drug companies. Even if that is the case, the regulations and laws and shit are what is keeping medication suitable for consumption. Do you want to know how it works? like honestly? It's simple. Drug companies research the shit out of drugs and come up with new chemical compounds that cure shit. The day they figure out it can work, they apply for a patent that lasts 20 years. After that, the FDA (a completely unbiased entity of the government), not the drug companies, do extensive tests on the drugs (on animals and humans, nonetheless) to determine side effects and if the drug actually works as well as to determine if they are suitable for the populace. After approval, drugs have limited time left on their patent (companies can apply for a 5 year patent extension, but time left for promotion after approval can't be more than 14 years). To make up for the money spent on research and getting the drug approved as well as to fund more research on new drugs, drug companies will charge large prices for their newly approved medicines. Once the drug's patent has ended, the knowledge protected by the patent is allowed to be used by anyone, thus allowing for generic drugs to be made. This allows for companies that do not do research to make the drugs at a much cheaper price. There is no political agenda in any of this. The political agenda that you are talking about rests in politician's view on marijuana used for medical purposes. It makes sense too because it's fucking illegal. They control how it can be used, not the FDA. It's as simple as that.

PS: You've got to be robbing some people or get paid by the government to only see two patients in one day. Oh whoops, did I say that?

[quote name='Emergo' post='399957' date='Apr 3 2008, 07:08 PM']
No, I don't think so.

Some simple useful links, just to start with:

hydrocodone

Oxycodone

Cannabis

(If you ever want to dig into it - or have to write a thesis about it or so - compare side-effects, chances of addiction/abuse/deaths etc., and wonder, wonder, wonder....why some are "legal" and the other is not.............)

Emergo [/quote]
I don't get it. Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't the idea of using marijuana for medical purposes to relieve pain that other drugs can't? Morphine and Codeine and derivatives from them are the most powerful pain relieving drugs out there. It would seem to me that marijuana would be replacing them, or at least be considered an alternative to those. Until I see FDA testing done with a stamp and approval or a medical journal written on the subject, I won't see marijuana as a cure all that libertarians or someone who just likes to toke up every once in a while lead me to believe. Call me close-minded, but I'm not buying it (the eagerness for approval/political agenda).

Edited by penguinBOB, 03 April 2008 - 11:10 PM.

^ WoW, PenguinBob....you seem to be involved in this one, just like I am.....lol!!

Only difference might be that I am working in the field as a doctor for a long time now, and you are not??
Which, of course, does not mean that my thougts/reasoning will be necessarily better than yours, for with these things a personal style of life/believe in humanity/science etc. ( or church/religion for others) also is of big influence on how one approaches things and want to see things,

And...ehh...either you did not take enough time to read what I said or just misunderstood/misinterpreted it (last things could be very logical, and due to me, for as English is not my mother-tongue, I often am expressing myself in a cripple way...)

Anyway, I think the topic-starter can have some new "food" by our thoughts also, and hopefully there'll come some more from others then still.....

Emergo

I really don't care, I hate marijuana compared with other drugs. Makes me feel dumb and just confused. I'll take the legalization of acid over anything else.

Cannabis is a great drug when combined with food.And even better when combined with alcohol.I wouldn't know what to say with the LSD argument as ive never tried it myself.However non of my friends recommend it

You want an FDA study? Well the FDA doesnt study shit. They review other people's studies(under funding from the companies themselves), and then determine safety and effectiveness. Also, the FDA was placed under reveiw from Congress because of problem's with the approval process. Ill post my research links tom, when I'm less tired.

Also, I finished the paper that started this whole topic. Its 121 pages, so a hefty read, but I'd appreciate feedback if anyone is interested.. Do let me know..


Furthermore PBOB, do some research before you shoot off at the mouth. I can refute everything you said there with cold hard evidence. You, like so many people it seems are completely misinformed on how the whole thing works. I would encourage you do more research before you post in here, but If you want to review my evidence, then by all means ask me, and I shall post it. However it is 12:30 on Sunday, and my ass is tired, so I'll be heading in now.

You want an FDA study? Well the FDA doesnt study shit. They review other people's studies(under funding from the companies themselves), and then determine safety and effectiveness. Also, the FDA was placed under reveiw from Congress because of problem's with the approval process. Ill post my research links tom, when I'm less tired.

Also, I finished the paper that started this whole topic. Its 121 pages, so a hefty read, but I'd appreciate feedback if anyone is interested.. Do let me know..
Furthermore PBOB, do some research before you shoot off at the mouth. I can refute everything you said there with cold hard evidence. You, like so many people it seems are completely misinformed on how the whole thing works. I would encourage you do more research before you post in here, but If you want to review my evidence, then by all means ask me, and I shall post it. However it is 12:30 on Sunday, and my ass is tired, so I'll be heading in now.

Post it.

And next time you want us to help you write your papers, don't be such a dick.

I didnt actually want help, just trying to foster debate..


Anywho here is the paper (random host let me know if it doesnt work)

http://www.mediafire.com/?tzymyg1nxzu