H2H4 / The Hurricanes Win H2H4

Steve is exactly right... no offense RCTNW, but you have absolutely no idea how hard it was to build Campi Vinobacci under the dire consequences. Our entire team (more specifically Mama Bear and I) worked extremely hard on it.

It seems as though you're just making poor excuses to make up for your loss against our park... and to be honest, CV had a lot more atmosphere and substance to it, despite some flaws, it shows that detailed, atmospheric parks can beat other parks that rely only on massive structures.

Although I haven't been here long, and not many people will listen, I say wait a bit longer for H2H5. It might not have much to do with H2H itself, but give people time to make solos, put some stuff in the Ad. District, take some spotlights, etc. and then, by the time H2H5 starts up, there'll be a whole slew of new parkmakers and non-parkmakers that'll sign up, therfore having more dedication and better (and finished or not forfeited) parks. Also, I agree with cutting down the rounds and making more time for park building, but another thing I was thinking is a forum for individual teams to talk or pass off the park they're currently working on because they're busy. Anyway, that's all I gotta say... besides, Pro Tour 3 is something for another time ...

For me,, to be honest, I lost intrest when a finished park lost to a unfinished park in week 1 (yes it was our park that lost and yes I was one of the builders). Yes the other park was good and it probably deserved to win based on what was showing however IMHO, that set the tone for the entire contest that you can win with an unfinished park.

An unfinshed park should be DQ'd from the get go so that there is more importance on getting it done.

Also, the season is just too long.
- Cut the regular season down to five weeks
- Add some time between matches
- Cut the finals to one and done!

The RCT community is shrinking and the format does not work anymore.

Congrats to the Hurricanes though. Well done to all
James - rctnw

Sorry RCTNW, but you're now just being sour. Losing is never fun, especially if you had a good feeling about your own work, but really, CF was great in my book and although it was unfinished it was very elegant and hid it's 'unfinishedness' quite well. Cheer up, you know for yourself that you are shafted working on a 70X70 map.
As for being the worst h2h ever..... well, a lot of people were a liability to their team and I won't deny that I was that somewhat to regarding Oasis of Asha... I really hate the fact that we couldn't go h2h with the bandits in the finals, because they looked more like a worthy opponent to me.
As for more time between matches, pure BS. People can easily do their thing in the given time. The problem is procastination. Whatever time given, people always end up saying not having enough no matter how much time you give them. This simply applies to real life as to rct and again, I won't say I'm not guilty to that to. As for any future h2hs, there do need to be changes. Those are open for discussion and since the clash of the Titans between Shadowlands and Alice, it should be considered to let the best two of the last four go to the finals. As for the cut in matches, that could be done, but keep the best of 3 for the finals.

Forgot to add, I think there shouldn't be any events the coming 6 months. Let people commit themselves more to their solos and stuff. We really are in need for some new spotlights & (S)RUs. Also I liked the idea that surfaced of allowing that concept stuff what meant that you could send something in like a themed area, just a bit like a design. It would do miracles for me.

Edited by tyandor, 28 December 2006 - 04:05 PM.

My plan...

-Next week off
-NE/H2H4 Award for 2006 Nominating
-A month later the Awards show
-2 months off with no type of NE sanctioned contests
-Maybe a small scale design contest
-2 more months off
-PT3 or another type of fairly big contest

Something like that, but I agree strongly with a big gap so we can have some solos completed, but there will also be stuff to do on the forum, I will just try and not have it that time consuming.

Steve is exactly right... no offense RCTNW, but you have absolutely no idea how hard it was to build Campi Vinobacci under the dire consequences. Our entire team (more specifically Mama Bear and I) worked extremely hard on it.

It seems as though you're just making poor excuses to make up for your loss against our park... and to be honest, CV had a lot more atmosphere and substance to it, despite some flaws, it shows that detailed, atmospheric parks can beat other parks that rely only on massive structures.

You know Jazz, I never stated your park was bad (I even stated that “Yes the other park was good and it probably deserved to win based on what was showing”) so please don’t give me this “but you have absolutely no idea how hard it was to build Campi Vinobacci under the dire consequences. Our entire team (more specifically Mama Bear and I) worked extremely hard on it.” Because I bet a majority of the unfinished parks had the same reason this year. Hell, even Vegas was all but a solo park by myself or do you not remember the calls out to cbass wondering where he was at. If it wasn’t for WME stepping in at the last minute, we would have forfeited since we already had a solo planned for a few weeks later. Even in our team forum, I talked about how important it was to me to submit a decent finished park vice a really good unfinished park. That is where I made my mistake and why I won’t do another H2H. I can’t build detail like that with a short amount of time. I build my parks to get a basic layout down and then go back and add detail to it later. This takes time for me and is not conducive to H2H time tables.

Again, my comment was not directed at your park but rather why I thought there was an increase of unfinished parks this year. In my opinion, our match up showed (directly or indirectly) that you can win with an “unfinished park” and it was in week 1 of the season. This set the tone for the rest of the season. Hell there was even discussion about the importance of a “finished” park in the topic. I lost interest in H2H4 because in my opinion, a finished park should win over an “unfinished park” regardless of who made it.

Tyandor - As for being sour about losing, hell I’m 0-4 in H2H. If I was sour about losing, I would not have signed up for this h2h4.

With all that said, I do applaud both you and Marjan for the work on your map. What was there was very good.

Anyway, what do I know.

James - rctnw

Basically I’ve loved H2h because of the team I’ve been on. There was always the competition against the bandits so it was good to me. I think H2h went downhill as soon as the second half hit. I think we should have a week or two off after the half of the season, have a reflective period or something like that so we can reflect on some of the amazing parks that have passed. Also I think maybe have a team about a month before H2h hits so a select team can organise the competition maybe brainstorm a few new ideas or such.

I personally think we shouldn’t have any competitions for a while, I’d leave that up to Rct2.com because there competitions are amazing. Plus if were thinking about the pro tour, have it towards the holidays when people can build and find time.

JK

Anyway congrats Hurricanes i wish we had'nt won like this but oh well. Im just looking forward to finishing my solo and seeing some spotlights.

Oh also don't have a design contest, let people do it out of there own free will. This is the point of no competitions because everyones tierd of deadlines, i know i am.

Edited by J K, 28 December 2006 - 04:44 PM.

My plan...

-Next week off
-NE/H2H4 Award for 2006 Nominating
-A month later the Awards show
-2 months off with no type of NE sanctioned contests
-Maybe a small scale design contest
-2 more months off
-PT3 or another type of fairly big contest

Something like that, but I agree strongly with a big gap so we can have some solos completed, but there will also be stuff to do on the forum, I will just try and not have it that time consuming.

2 months is about the time people need to get a project going.
i'd say have at least 3 months breaks, and don't do another contest until there has been a new spotlight.

Or maybe not have a small contest in the middle... that's a 4 month break until several solos get finished (a Spotlight and several full scale Runner Ups).

Plus I think some small scale forum contests will be going on that time, which is enough for right now.

IMHO what this site needs is content. No 'breaks'..
It doesn't matter how large or small it is, as long as it inspires people to get building.. That's at least how my engine kept running for the past 5 years.. There just has to be that sparkle another one's work sometimes could give to get building..

So maybe you just have to kinda 'command' your NE parkmakers to all build a small piece, just like iris sometimes did.. They all are condeemed the best of the best when it comes down to parkmaking and belong to the elite (at least that's what I understood from it).. They're also required to be productive, so it wouldn't be a problem for them to contribute a piece in preventing NE to collapse..

You even could make a sub-forum called 'The NE Parkmakers corner' so that only NE Parkmakers can post there snippets of work there.. Could also sparkle the competition between non-parkmakers to get more acknowledgement and privileges when they become NE Parkmaker.. And it could learn newcomers how to build/advertise..

Just a thought..

SF

btw; Worst season ever, thanks to the east division.. I kinda predicted it was going this way, and it did unfortunately..
Also, stop making excuses about real-life. We ALL have it, have to deal with it, and have to make some free time for our HOBBY RCT.. I devote this one to lack of motivation.. We even started our semi finals/finals park at the beginning of the season, and 5 months should be enough for a mini park..

Edited by Six Frags, 28 December 2006 - 05:59 PM.

Wait, Campi Vinobacci wasnt finished? I thought those open grass fields were supposed to be the vineyards?

IMHO what this site needs is content. No 'breaks'..
It doesn't matter how large or small it is, as long as it inspires people to get building.. That's at least how my engine kept running for the past 5 years.. There just has to be that sparkle another one's work sometimes could give to get building..

So maybe you just have to kinda 'command' your NE parkmakers to all build a small piece, just like iris sometimes did.. They all are condeemed the best of the best when it comes down to parkmaking and belong to the elite (at least that's what I understood from it).. They're also required to be productive, so it wouldn't be a problem for them to contribute a piece in preventing NE to collapse..

You even could make a sub-forum called 'The NE Parkmakers corner' so that only NE Parkmakers can post there snippets of work there.. Could also sparkle the competition between non-parkmakers to get more acknowledgement and privileges when they become NE Parkmaker.. And it could learn newcomers how to build/advertise..

Just a thought..

SF

btw; Worst season ever, thanks to the east division.. I kinda predicted it was going this way, and it did unfortunately..
Also, stop making excuses about real-life. We ALL have it, have to deal with it, and have to make some free time for our HOBBY RCT.. I devote this one to lack of motivation.. We even started our semi finals/finals park at the beginning of the season, and 5 months should be enough for a mini park..

Good point although I always thought of contests, group parks, and other 'content' as sort of stepping stones to bursts of rct activity. Before, there would be Spotlights and Runner Ups plus Designs and minor contests in between the main contests. Now though, there aren't many solos in between contests so it's just a long dead period between them. Now that activity is so low, I think we need a break because contests for the reason I stated before: the people who join contests are the people who have solos and other contests that they are doing.

You're probably right OLE, but then again it's too vague to get NE some updates.. I mean, when do you know when someone completes a park worthy of runner-up/spotlight/design etc.. It could be a long period of no updates at all, or a short period with a lot of worthy content..

Maybe there should be some kind of 'release list' with when people plan to get a park completed.. People could respond freely so no one has to set a deadline if he doesn't want to.. This way the NE updates could be spread, and a general planning of activities could be made in order for people who need it to get their parks completed..

And with the 'NE Parkmaker corner' NE will always have quality park updates.. Even if it's only screens..
Also, I have always thought the whole NE Parkmaker thing was one of the best features of this site.. Let's face it; everyone wants to be the best.. The downfall though, is that once most Parkmakers got Parkmaker they achieved what they wanted and moved on (few exceptions of course).. Look for example on that list on the Parkmaker page of this site and you'll know what I mean.. The Parkmaker title should be used more imo..

Right now, we could be waiting forever for some people to get their solo's completed, without any real NE update (like in Kumba posting his own parks on a parkmaker page )
And we don't want that will we??

SF

Edited by Six Frags, 28 December 2006 - 07:59 PM.

First, congratulations 'Canes!!! and I'd also like to congratulate each of the contestants for being part of this competition (I mean, not anybody can be drafted)

Anyway, about unfinished parks...I don't think that they should be DQ:

1-If there's a match up with 2 unfinished parks, what will happen?
2-Even if those parks are unfinished, the best one will win.
3-Some of them are less than a quarter unfinished...it'd be unfair to exclude that park of the competition, considering that 75% of it is completed.

Also, I don't think that people will relax and won't worry about finishing the park, just because there was a match-up where an unfinished park beat another unfinished park...I mean, they will be taking the same risk anyway (To loose or to be disqualified)

RCTNW: What's the difference between loosing and being disqualified? (Yes, there are differences, I know...but at the end, your park doesn't win). You never know what your opponent is going to show, so, what I mean is that a member who is not really worried about finishing a park, won't change that just because of a DQ warning, since they will be taking the same risk, considering that DQ and loosing are basically the same...get what I mean.
Basing on what I said...you were complaining about unfinished parks, right? And you want them to be DQ...what do you prefer? and unfinished park, or nothing?

BTW, when is the Hurricanes park going to be released? I'm looking forward to see it.

Edited by RCFanB&M, 28 December 2006 - 08:18 PM.

Well I was more stating a problem (contests no longer lead to bursts of rct activity/there needs to be breaks for people to finish solos because they are the ones in the contests) then stating a solution. You are right that contests are good times for NE because of all the competiton and seeing other's work but when people are dying to have the contest over because they want to work on their solos and all motivation for it is dead... let's not bog them down with another contest...

Worst. H2H. Ever.

I second that.

Perhaps NE should adapt to the chaging community, rather than say "it is dead".

Truthiness there!

What people are failing to see is that despite some average unfinished parks, a vast majority of the parks that WERE finished were amazing. I think I've seen some of the best work ever come out of this season, and everyone needs to look at this with the glass half full instead of half empty.

Wow Steve...and I concur. I don't care how bad everybody said this H2H was...there were some great parks and going back to what ride_exchanger said...you have to appreciate what you get, rather than bitch about what you don't get.

I personally think we shouldn’t have any competitions for a while, I’d leave that up to Rct2.com because there competitions are amazing.

Well, thank you J K, I really appreciate that! I do like the competitions here too and I think they should continue...

IMHO what this site needs is content. No 'breaks'..
It doesn't matter how large or small it is, as long as it inspires people to get building.. That's at least how my engine kept running for the past 5 years.. There just has to be that sparkle another one's work sometimes could give to get building..

So maybe you just have to kinda 'command' your NE parkmakers to all build a small piece, just like iris sometimes did.. They all are condeemed the best of the best when it comes down to parkmaking and belong to the elite (at least that's what I understood from it).. They're also required to be productive, so it wouldn't be a problem for them to contribute a piece in preventing NE to collapse..

You even could make a sub-forum called 'The NE Parkmakers corner' so that only NE Parkmakers can post there snippets of work there.. Could also sparkle the competition between non-parkmakers to get more acknowledgement and privileges when they become NE Parkmaker.. And it could learn newcomers how to build/advertise..

I agree. First of all, everyone who is clamoring for releases of full parks for spotlights and runnerups....lets be serious. How many came in last year? Stopping contests will not make people build solo parks. If people want to build a solo park, they will build a solo park. They need inspiration and incentive to do that...and if it doesn't come from within, it must come from visual aids...such as contests, designs, etc. I know at RCT Space which doesn't get the park traffic this site does, but nonetheless, people just hardly make parks anymore, there are always the few but we get more action from the contests. Some people will always need these quick fixes, these visual aids, to keep them going. Some of these people then go start a solo, or get inspiration to finish a solo they started before.

I suggest 3 things need to happen here. You need to keep what New Element is famous for and a couple of those things are the Pro Tour and H2H. You need to run the Pro Tour in the summer and H2H in the winter and lastly you need to get your PARKMAKERS active. I suggest a PARKMAKER playoff. Who is the best PARKMAKER? I agree with SixFrags that it seems the ultimate goal here is to make parkmaker...but what happens after they make parkmaker? not much...and I know there are some of you out there that are active...but still.

H2H should be a five week schedule...you go up against each team once. Round Robin scoring...playoffs and then final. Enough people are recruited from the outset that no one goes more than once. Its a six week schedule and you know it from the beginning. Teams get their twosomes lined up and you have six weeks to get 5 parks done. Voting is done....then another six weeks for playoff parks...another six weeks for finals.

I have an awesome idea for a PARKMAKER playoff...Kumba can get in touch with me about that one..

Edited by Buckeye Becky, 28 December 2006 - 09:34 PM.

While I agree that this was the weakest h2h season I don't think any major shifts in the rules for next time (if they'll be a next time) would help anything.

What killed this season for me was that as the season reached its end school started up again. Lets face it: The vast majority of 'us' here on NE are students, be it middle school, high school, or college. Over the summer my whole team (with a couple exceptions: see 'snakes!') was biting at the bit to build parks. Everone was checking in on a daily basis, or at the very least, a few times per week; screens were getting posted, and parks were getting done. That all changed once September hit. Everything slowed to a crawl, nobody was modivated anymore, some members simply up and vanished.

My advice would be to draft in late March trade until about April 1st, start the main season in mid-April (giving about 3 weeks to the first due date after teams are finalized). At that point they'll be no extentions, period. Incomplete parks are allowed (of course), since the due dates aren't flexible. The main season would end right as July begins. The would give us the height of summer to build the finals parks. Mid July = Playoffs. Augest 1st = Finals round one, the rest would be a week thereafter.

Oh and maybe we should increase the team sizes a fuzz. Maybe 11 or 12 members per team since several of the groups seemed to shed players throughout the season. I realize that bigger teams eats up replacements, but it also makes the loss of one person (assuming their not a cornerstone of the team) much less of an ordeal. Obviously the rule about everyone having to build in the main season would be more challanging, and it would eliminate any benifit of larger teams. Insted I purpose that 10 of a teams players must go in the season even though they might have 12...

I really want to see h2h again, though I think another Hi-rollers style free-for-all competition may be in better order for the near(er) future (aka June-July-Augest 07'). Kumba?

And what about the NE Challange idea I was talking up?

Ride6

So maybe you just have to kinda 'command' your NE parkmakers to all build a small piece, just like iris sometimes did.. They all are condeemed the best of the best when it comes down to parkmaking and belong to the elite (at least that's what I understood from it).. They're also required to be productive, so it wouldn't be a problem for them to contribute a piece in preventing NE to collapse..

Well I know for a fact that does not work, iris tried that a few times and I think it only worked years ago when NE started.

We will have a long brake from contests, thats what most of the members want and they will get it.

As far as this H2H goes it was the best and worst somehow. Thanx to Steve for his post, it's true that this H2H showcased some of the greatest mini parks ever made, just in a few cases they faced a totally unfinished piece of shit or just got posted vs a title reading forfeit.

RCTFAN and Breakaway you guys can just shut-up with all that negativity posting "Worst. H2H. Ever" next post like thats getting deleted, it's basically your way of crying in the form of spam.

Thx for all the contest ideas you guys are tossing out, but there will be a time and place for that and it will not be anytime soon, but hang onto your ideas for down the road when we are ready for another contest.

congrats Kumba and the hurricanes, finishing a park in itself at this stage is an impressive accomplishment in itself. i just wanna say my two cents here, and i've still been around a little bit, just not really posting.

to be honest, i think it's fine that it ended like this. it shows (if nothing else) that NE is changing, and the "super active" days, when there were completed parks being released every week, are over. and not coincidentally, also gone are most of the people that were driving those days. the remarkable thing now is, is that most of the ideas that were unique in RCT are now just conventional. the demolished look of the ruined village in RoB that once defined RCT as we know it is no longer amazing. it seems like the qualities that RoB had are essentially prerequisites to the better parks released today.

so where do we go from here then? the site has been taking some steps in the right direction with Kumba, who, despite some crticism, is moving on from iris' eventual softness with everything. but i like many people believe everything happens for a reason. this site is changing and new people are emerging, but before long im confident we'll see the community develop in a different way. maybe there's some approach to inspire people to build, but hey, most of the greater people here are busy enough with their own lives. that's fine, though, it allows for new possiblities.

i know from my perspective that i've gotten a great enjoyment out of playing RCT just for myself, much like JD Salinger's reclusion from society when he wrote books for himself in the middle of nowhere, never submitting them anywhere. i got a runner up, but wasn't really satisfied with it. i donno. it just wasn't what i envisioned. and i knew that it would take me years of purely striving relentlessly in RCT to get myself a better reputation around here rather than someone who is average to above average in terms of skill. so when i have enough time, i build, and yes i have had a large, different, refreshing solo going for the past year or so, but i think i'm afraid to really release any public screens of it. because ive done it for myself rather than anything else.

maybe someday it'll be finished but like many others, just when people seem to be "getting it" and getting decent, they stop making parks or build them only occasionally. look at WME, metalface, Mantis, etc. the list goes on. my favorite parkmakers are all like that. but this is the way we see RCT now.

So, to sum up my huge discourse, i'd just like to re-echo my point: H2H ENDING LIKE THIS IS OKAY! it means we're changing and the site is going in a new direction. most people will still be around here to post and maybe, just maybe, we'll have a long awaited RoB-esque work that will change the way we look at RCT, just like RoB did back in its day.

Edited by CoasterForce, 28 December 2006 - 10:46 PM.

^ Very good post.

It's funny, the forums seemed totally dead, and I come back from work to find so many refreshing posts in this thread and ideas in general. It really shows the community is still in full force. I think the main problem on this site is lack of content. I mean the main page is alright, but we really need great leadership. I think Kumba is doing a great job so far, and these things take time. I think the NE main site needs to have more functionality. We need to give people reasons to come to the site and not just the forums, and we need constant new content to keep people coming back. There are so many possible ideas that could be done to the main site, and I hope many good ideas have already been thought of while designing NE3. People who are in charge of running the site just need to be creative.

I love the idea of changing up the format of H2H a bit and adapting to the community. I think the season wasn't too bad at all. And since I am a new member to this site I do kind of scratch my head in disbelief that there were new parks being released every week back in the day. I did my best in this H2H, and I think for the most part, the people who want to be active did a great job also. It's really a shame some people signed up and got drafted high up in the list just off of their name alone and didn't live up to their end and produce. With status symbols in the community that is pretty much unavoidable, I just think it takes a good captain to really know the players he drafts and be smart about it. I have to go ahead and agree with tyandor...people make times for things they want to do. It doesn't matter how busy their real life is..if somebody has the drive to want to do something, it will get done.

I'm running out of things to say, so I will say again, congrats to the Canes.