H2H4 / Week 1: Hurricanes vs. Strangelove

That'd be ridiculously awesome.

Also tracid you need to stop putting yourself down like that (by the looks of how Cajamarca turned out you were a great complement to Ed stylistically). See what really high expectations of LL do to now very good new LL parkmakers' confidence levels?

Im confident that Slime Meridian could take on any H2H rct2 park that has ever been created and beat it (or at least give it a run for its money). Take the poll "Favorite Park of Week 2"....SM beat MSM 36-25, and MSM is considered by many one of the best H2H RCT2 parks that has been made, am I correct? And Slime Meridian is not "flawless", in fact I would say it needs a whole lot of refining in certain areas....add the fact that me and Kiri were really just fuckin around (which may in turn have made it better i dont know) and it does have its issues. My point is, SM is NOT as good as LL could get (And I am certain because I know I could build better than what I did in SM).

Take this matchup for example:
Give me & Ed, me & kiri, kiri & ed, etc RCT LL, throw one of the pairs against Phatage & Mala (or any other pair u think is best) going in RCT2, i would bet money on any of the LL pairings.

Also, the Cajamarca vs GCC, no its not the ultimate test....its a good one, but not the ultimate.
Battlefield RCT or Erwindale Forest would likely do better against a GCC, because those two are better parks. And I would give Battlefield RCT a victory over GCC.

It's all just speculation though isn't it? Hmm, I'd say Mont Saint Michel is a perfect example of a "good RCT2 park". Lacking in rides, the idea itself isn't amazing, but there's that fantastic architecture and landscaping work. But how many LL parks would beat it? One of us veterans at the top of our game probably could, but then we'd be expected to win regardless -- that's why we're veterans. I think if any of us really got to know RCT2 and how best to use it's tools as well as we know LL we could really blow people away with what's possible, more so than even the best LL park could.

I feel the same way about my LL parks that you seem to feel about yours. It's good work for what it is, but still not reaching full potential. I can sortof see why you're so confident that a quality LL park can win any matchup though. Certain things do translate fairly equally between both games. A good coaster is a good coaster regardless. There aren't 1/4 tile landscaping tiles in LL, but good landscaping is still about equal between the two. And of course a good idea is still a good idea, regardless. But against Mala and Phatage? Wow. You're more confident than I am. I guess that's always been one of your positive qualities as a parkmaker. I wish I had that kind of confidence.

I think there's a much bigger gap in LL between the Eds and Fathas and Kiris of this site and the other accomplished players than there is between the top rct'ers and the other, less well recognised (but good) players. Which means that LL parks are all judged by the inflated standards of a few legends, compared to rct2 parks being judged on a more narrow spectrum (and this is because most members are so fucking ignorant when it comes to phatage's parks - people, they're fucking amazing).
So what i'm trying to say is that I think expectations for LL h2h parks are definitely higher than those for their rct2 opponents.

I'm not sure.
I think the 'top' LL players should start to play RCT2, and vice versa.

Maybe an idea for a new competition?

SF

oh come on, the reason kiri, ed and fatha stick out so much is because anyone else hardly even plays ll anymore. the few that try newly are treated the same as the few that are new to rct2. i think rct2 has more options, which makes it easier to make a more impressive park. so yes, you need less skill to make the same quality park. but it isn't because ll parks are viewed differently then, it's because rct2 parks are easier to make. and it's a open choice to make it hard on yourself or not, if you take that choice don't be a bitch about it when you lose the matchup when your park clearly wasn't that much better but only took more skill because it was made in an earlier game.

Yeah, why lessen your resources when you have a choice?

There's no point in that when you want to win in a competition.

SF

I'd like to see Fatha vs. Phatage personally. That would be a damn good matchup. And it would really determine the LL vs. RCT2 deal, since those are 2 of the best (if not the best) at the respective games.

Edited by eman, 27 July 2006 - 09:53 AM.

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I never played LL to "lessen my options" -- I played LL because RCT2 was so damn frustrating I gave up trying to learn it. For me LL was (and still is) infinitely easier. Even with all the hacking I do.

You spoke for me Ed.

Its not that RCT2 is easier to build in. Its the FACT that its easier to impress the crowd.

Edited by RMM, 27 July 2006 - 10:02 AM.

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I never played LL to "lessen my options" -- I played LL because RCT2 was so damn frustrating I gave up trying to learn it. For me LL was (and still is) infinitely easier. Even with all the hacking I do.

haha. that's totally why i haven't switched over to rct2 yet.

^Same here.

I also feel that people stopped trying to find new things in LL because they didn't need to. The "NE Style" was born and that did something really important. Win Spotlights. People just made what everyone wanted to see. This is why the parkmakers I really respect are not the ones with the most Spotlights; they're the ones who worked to push the boundries of the game no matter how limited it seems.

To Six Frags and anyone else who thinks LL is limited; that's bullshit. Just because you don't have 40,000+ objects to choose from does not mean a game is limited. I feel LL lets you to be more creative and is a little harder. This makes it more fun for me. I mean, where is the fun in just picking out objects for your workbench? I'd rather make my own objects and use them for what I need. That said, I wasn't trying to 'one-up' anyone with my black tiles (well, maybe just a little ). I just wanted to show that new things can be discovered in LL that are useful to everyone who plays it.

Edit-I'm not saying I won't give rct2 a chance. I just don't like to play it. And I feel the so-so quality of Grijs was higher than the so-so quality of Ragnarok.
And what new LL players are there that have really played a lot? Not many, so I don't know what that 'cult' thing was all about.

Edited by OLE, 27 July 2006 - 11:51 AM.

It's all just speculation though isn't it? Hmm, I'd say Mont Saint Michel is a perfect example of a "good RCT2 park". Lacking in rides, the idea itself isn't amazing, but there's that fantastic architecture and landscaping work. But how many LL parks would beat it? One of us veterans at the top of our game probably could, but then we'd be expected to win regardless -- that's why we're veterans. I think if any of us really got to know RCT2 and how best to use it's tools as well as we know LL we could really blow people away with what's possible, more so than even the best LL park could.

I know you could Ed, and probably some others too, but I just want to see it.. No really, we all were blown away when you build that canyon coaster in RCT3 and even so the work you did in Kumba's and AP's rct2 solo's; It shows you always find creative solutions with your skills, no mather what problems you're facing..
If only more LL 'veterans' would try to get used to rct2, like fatha', mala and phatage did, we would get a much clearer view of the (H2H/rct2) parks that are being build nowadays.. Et vice versa, of course.

Oh, and OLE, it's a fact that you have to work with the textures that come with RCT1/CF/LL, you can't import new textures like in rct2. Sure you hack the hell out of the game and use tracks etc. to let it look like new textures, but you know those are not really 'new'.. That's kinda the charm (for me) with LL; To be creative and find new ways to develop originality. That's also why I voted SM; There were a lot of innovative ideas I've not seen done before in LL and thus making it refreshing and original.. Bottomline is there were no new textures, just new ways..

SF

Edited by Six Frags, 27 July 2006 - 11:52 AM.

^Sorry, but what are you getting at? I'm not saying everything has to be new textures in LL. Of couse it's more limited and the stuff you use is just tracks and raised land. That's part of the fun.

Edit- Define new for me. If no one has done it before, it's new. No matter what it is or how it's done. At least give me a little fucking credit for what I'm trying to do in LL. And other people.

Edited by OLE, 27 July 2006 - 11:58 AM.

I agree. One of the reasons I play LL is that it's satisfying to try and improve with a limited palette of options at your disposal. I personally am boggled by having too many options to choose from. I probably will play RCT2 as well some day but I'll have to start with a minimal amount of custom scenery for that reason.

One of the other reasons is because I think simply more attractive things can be created in the game. Of course that's disputable, but for me nothing in RCT2 can rival the Greece area in The Aegean, or the entrance area in Loopy's new solo, or the heaven area in Divine Comedy, to name a few. Something about raised land looks purer and more like a painting to me. I don't know why. Maybe it's because the building-from-the-ground-up nature of RCT2 makes things look like they were placed on the landscape, whereas LL stuff looks like it is just a part of it, inseparable from it.

While I am making a concerted effort to move away from only using raised land, windows, and paths, I don't care if anyone think it's outdated or unimpressive or whatever. When done right, it's fucking gorgeous.

^^Uhm, I didn't say I didn't gave you credit for anyting new you did with LL.. If you read it again, I said the opposite; I admire the skill you need to have to be original and refreshing in LL. That's what makes LL fun for me..

I added tags to new, because I knew people would fell over it.. I mean new as in objectively new--new .dat files that contain new texture content, like rct2 has.
Not new as in a new combination of textures to create a new one that people haven't seen done before in the game.. Miscommunication I presume :' />

SF

Edited by Six Frags, 27 July 2006 - 12:11 PM.

Oh ok. I didn't get what you meant with that. I never said anything about importing textures though.

And it didn't really take much skill to find the new things. Mostly just luck. (At least for me)

Edited by OLE, 27 July 2006 - 12:20 PM.

oh come on, the reason kiri, ed and fatha stick out so much is because anyone else hardly even plays ll anymore. the few that try newly are treated the same as the few that are new to rct2.

I don't agree. I think it's because they're that much further along the curve than other LL'ers. I don't think anyone in rct2 is that much further ahead of anyone else (or is recognised as such, seeing as I think Phatage probably is). That's independent of how many people play. That's why I think it's unfair to compare LL parks to the best of the best LL parks when the difference in standard is larger than in rct2. I'm guessing that when people are deciding how good a park is they judge it against the standard of all other parks. If that's how you're going to compare Castle Grijs and Ragnarok, then I think you're being unfair on the former.

i think rct2 has more options, which makes it easier to make a more impressive park. so yes, you need less skill to make the same quality park. but it isn't because ll parks are viewed differently then, it's because rct2 parks are easier to make.

Don't you include any assessment of the skill that went into something when you're deciding how good it is? If something looked horrible but you could see there was a lot of technical skill involved (of course the two are linked, but I think it's possible for something to have lots of skill involved but not look that great) wouldn't you see it as slightly better than when you first looked at it? Maybe not aesthetically, but in terms of appreciation of the work that went into it... Maybe you don't care about that aspect of rct, I don't know.


In the end I think that the level set by Battlefield RCT means that all LL H2H parks are expected to be amazing, whereas expectations are lower for rct2 parks. I just think that's now a fact of H2H and I don't see how that could fail to affect people's votes.

Yeah I think one of the problems is that everyone who plays LL seems to be expected to be as far along with the game as the most advanced LL parkmakers, for some reason. I've seen that in this thread, "well it's LL so it should be another BGSS or Battlefield RCT or something because you guys should know how to do that." You guys realize that that's like expecting every RCT2 park to be another Rift Valley or Aviara Cove? Is that fair to the parkmakers?

Just to address one of the things you've said in this thread, Ed - you've spoken out about how LL parks should be expected to keep up with the furthest that RCT2 has gone. But I think that's like comparing two different forms of art. You can't criticize a stage production of Hamlet because the visual effects aren't as cool as in the Lord of the Rings movies, nor can you expect them to create a perfect full-size Elsinore Castle on stage just because LotR has Minas Tirith. You know what I mean?

Edited by Panic, 27 July 2006 - 12:51 PM.

Mmm good points Ed.

But I still believe that you give me LL and my partner and I will beat any combination of RCT2 parkmakers on this site....but maybe thats just me being confident.

Hey Stefon. You and Ed vs Me and Blitz. LL vs RCT 2.


Everyone else:

holy shit it'd be the SoCal showdown.