General Chat / The Design of Religion

I always thought Michael Moore was pretty cool, really.

I always thought Michael Moore was pretty cool, really.

Could stand to lose a few pounds though.

Freedom of choice!  It's what the whole damn Adam and Eve thing was about.  They chose to sin after Satan tempted them, we still choose to sin because of Satan, and God doesn't force us not to sin.  God doesn't control everything that happens on the planet, he just set the ball in motion, it hit a mud puddle, and he intervenes from time to time and will eventually pick the ball up and rinse it off.

That's actually a very interesting analogy. Or metaphor. Or allusion. Yeah, I'm not good in English.

Just a few thoughts...
Hell isn't so much a physical place as it is the absence of God. The Bible describes a place (it does not say "hell" in particular) where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." It's used several times throughout the Bible. There are other hints at punishment, but I can't come up with any off hand. Point is, when you die you don't wind up awake in a barren, grey wasteland and then find yourself in convulsions of agony. That's way to human... to real. No, hell is (IMO) simply the absence of God. "Weeping" gives me the impression that it will be intensly depressing -- but then how can't it be without God. "Gnashing of teeth" does give the impression of a painful torture. But pain itself is physical. Without a physical body, there isn't pain. I think it's more of a spiritual "disease" per say. As if your very soul were in a constant state of decay. So hell to me is eternal, overpowering sadness and deterioration.

Regarding those who don't get the chance to know God, I think the same question could be raised to those who lived and died before Christ conquered Satan. After all, God technically wasn't able to forgive us of our sins until after Christ had risen. And while it's a very unusal thought saying that God isn't about to do something, that's my understanding of the situation. So what does happen to those people who don't know God/died before Christ rose?
I have no idea. I'll let God Himself handle that. After all, I know God. And obviously, alot of you do as well. So let Him deal with that, and we can deal with our own relationships with Him, since we are capable of having them.

About the whole "religions are a cult" bit. I've thought about this as well. It is very odd to stop reciting The Lord's Prayer, and simply listen to the rest of the congregation speak in unison. As if we're all androids or something, being programmed with the same message to "recharge us." Problem with that thinking comes in whan I realize just how much The Lord's Prayer actually says. Think about it. Line for line, The Lord's Prayer is stunning. There's no way that you can say those words sincerely without believing their power.

"Our Father,
.....who art in Heaven,
..........HALLOWED be Thy name.
.....Thy Kindom Come,
..........Thy Will be done,
...............on EARTH as it is in HEAVEN.
.....Give us this day our daily bread;
.....And forgive us our trespasses,
..........As we forgive those who trespass against us.
.....And lead us not into temptation,
..........But deliver us from evil.
.....For Thine is the KINGDOM,
..........and the POWER,
...............and the GLORY,
.....For Ever and Ever.
Amen.

I mean, if you believe what you're saying, there is NO WAY you could have EVER heard anything more intensly moving than those words. Just because people recite them as a cult might recite verses does not make them any less powerful. I've found myself just saying them because they're in the bulletin. But after taking a look at even the first five lines just brings an immense sense of strength to me. Actually, the very first two words brings an immense sense of strength to me.

For the songs just being a catchy way of brainwashing, again take a look at what you're singing. Many hymns, while catchy, have very powerful messages behind them just the same. Take, for instance, the Jars of Clay song I posted in the "What are you listening to" thread:

"Dear God, surround me as I speak,
.....the bridges that I walk across are weak;
.....Frustrations fill the void that I can't solely bear.
Dear God, don't let me fall apart,
.....you've held me close to you;
..........I have turned away and searched for answers I can't understand."

These lyrics also answer/relate to a question/statement made earlier. The statement was that God, being omnipotent/omnipresent, should have full control over human sin. And truthfully, He does. But because He loves us unconditionally, he also gives us the awesome and devastating power of free will. I'm sure some of you have seen the movie Bruce Almighty, and it covers this area. But using the lyrics I posted, God holds us close to Him. He created us, after all. But is us that turn away, not Him. Therefore, people can sin because they/we choose to. Instead of not ever forgiving us, though, God thankfully accepts us back with open arms, no matter how long we've been gone, or if it's the first time we've ever come to Him.



So yeah. There's plenty more, but I'll save it for later if it needs to be said.
I'd just like to mention in closing that I'm no different than anyone else when it comes to shoving things down people's throat: it won't work. Religion is something chosen by an individual, not decided for them. There's no changing that. I do believe it's for the better of the individual to listen to anyone offering helpful advice with factual backing.

Of course, people like that are hard to come by.

And just to throw it out there, I believe Gandhi has gone to Heaven. Though why I can't exactly explain. And that's all I'm saying, as it's nowhere near my place to decide.

What if by "sin" the authors of the bible meant the same thing as "karma"? What if Jesus spent the majority of his life in Asia, practicing the same techniques as the Oriental saints? What if this was hell? Maybe the weeping and gnashing of teeth part was a metaphor for material emotions that we are free from when we are apart from Earth? I know none of that was very coherent, but the point is, I personally believe that the traditional human view of life is very irrational and illogical. Is one religion better than all other religions? Certainly not. Is religion perfect? Not even close. But no matter what theological ideals you are exposed to, I just don't see how Agnosticism or Atheism is going to get you anywhere. Yet, I agree with barely any major parts of any major religion. Basically, I think the purpose of life (or lives, since one life makes no sense at all) IS to rid one's self of "sin," but the idea of sin doesn't have to be so confusing or intimidating. It's just shit you've done that you have to rid yourself of. Why we're here in the first place I don't know. But I think eventually we will.

Basically, I think the purpose of life (or lives, since one life makes no sense at all) IS to rid one's self of "sin," but the idea of sin doesn't have to be so confusing or intimidating. It's just shit you've done that you have to rid yourself of.

"Sin" is just a matter of perspective. Sin in one religion isn't in another. What I consider sinful you mignt not. So, are you implying we personally create our own sins?

Edited by Fenix, 24 December 2005 - 04:24 AM.

Sure. Every aspect of social life in every culture has the same basic underlying meaning. As far as the Christian idea of "sin" goes, it's been twisted a little, but it's basically bad things have repurcussions, just like karma, or ying and yang, etc. And yeah, if you think about it, why should I be repenting for some shit I didn't create myself? That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard.

I am sorry for my outburst. It was a result of a late night and too much...Coke (you thought I'd say Alcohol...!). I will re-read your post when I'm in a fit state to do so...

As far as the Christian idea of "sin" goes, it's been twisted a little, but it's basically bad things have repurcussions, just like karma, or ying and yang, etc.

So, I have another question. What do you believe are these repurcussions? Or atleast what you think they are for you personally.

Thank you for being completely STUPID. In case you didn't notice, only like...three sentences out of his entire post were sarcastic.

And to laz0rz or whatever : I have no clue where you got the idea that you can get to Heaven without believing in God. The Bible pretty much expressly states that only believers that seek God's will and follow him with all their heart will get into Heaven. I can quote verses for you if you'd like.

But... the bible isn't written by god. So nobody knows about if what is in there is made up by completely dumbasses.
Also the whole christian religion is a totally rip-off of other religions.
For instance the god-figure.
[ya i know: never make a picture of god or whatever]
But if he is drawed in a comic or at simpsons or sowhatever he's an old man. A rip-off from Zeus.
Or the fact that this whole hell-thing is taken by the nordics. Their believe in the world was a plate of the earth with a tree on it. Under this plate there was a place called 'Hel'...

I personally don't believe in a god.
I don't like the thought that my whole life is predestinated or that somebody up or down there has a plan...

Happy Hanukkah to everyone.

But... the bible isn't written by god. So nobody knows about if what is in there is made up by completely dumbasses.

It might not be written by God, but God inspired the Gospel writers to write what they wrote. So basically, the Bible was, in fact, written by God, through other people.

It might not be written by God, but God inspired the Gospel writers to write what they wrote. So basically, the Bible was, in fact, written by God, through other people.

So why are there so many contradictions in the Bible, then? Did God mislead some of the writers?

^ no. this sure was Satan

It might not be written by God, but God inspired the Gospel writers to write what they wrote. So basically, the Bible was, in fact, written by God, through other people.

I think they just where stoned. So in fact they were completely dumbasses.

So why are there so many contradictions in the Bible, then?  Did God mislead some of the writers?

No, just different views of certain events. Take the baptism of Jesus, for example.

But... the bible isn't written by god. So nobody knows about if what is in there is made up by completely dumbasses.
Also the whole christian religion is a totally rip-off of other religions.
For instance the god-figure.
[ya i know: never make a picture of god or whatever]
But if he is drawed in a comic or at simpsons or sowhatever he's an old man. A rip-off from Zeus.
Or the fact that this whole hell-thing is taken by the nordics. Their believe in the world was a plate of the earth with a tree on it. Under this plate there was a place called 'Hel'...

Rip-off is harsh. I'd like to call it borrowing. Just like the English language borrows from other languages.

Of course there is going to be borrowing of some aspects. How else would the prophets have converted all the people to Chrisianity?

Rip-off is harsh.  I'd like to call it borrowing.  Just like the English language borrows from other languages.

that's waht i meant, sorry.

Of course there is going to be borrowing of some aspects.  How else would the prophets have converted all the people to Chrisianity?

Yeah. That was a whole borrowing and compromising.
So they took the Mid-winter-sun-fest of the kelts and said: 'Oh well, so you can keep this fest but we now celebrate it on 24th instead of the 21st and, oh, let's just say it was the bithday of Jesus...
[His real birthday was around march i think i read...]
...

lol @ theological discussions.

nothing makes people want to talk out of their ass more than 2 things: religion and politics.

That is why this thread delivers.

i really enjoyed reading hobbes post. that made me think. a lot. so thank you for that.

as for some of my thoughts. i think religion in general (no matter what type) is a test. a test of mental strength; how well you can resist temptation and stay loyal to God even though there are obstacles thrown every day. its sad to see some kids go through great Christian camps and programs like "Great Escape." someone i know went to a camp and came back "changed." the next week, he brought a porn magazine to school.

i do believe there is a God that always cares and watches over everyone, and i feel its important to resist all the evil in this world. so sorry if that sounds sappy and stupid to a few of you.

Well, I'm not a very religious guy, and I'm Jewish. So I really don't know all that much about the bible. (second testament) I will say though, that unfortunately, the whole "God" thing doesn't really sit with me. I think that about 2000 years ago, when times were very harsh, someone sat down and started writing all of this stuff about an almighty God. I believe this person or these people who did this used their writings as comfort. It is much easier to live your life feeling protected by God, is it not? When times got hard for these people, they'd open their book, and feel better about living. I believe it got popular and spread, and suddenly everyone was "religious". I know that after I post this, regardless of how tolerable people are, I will lose some respect, but that doesn't bother me. I'm not saying that atheists are correct and everyone else is wrong and religion is bad. Actually, I believe religion is great. I think that going to church or temple or whatever is fantastic because it is a community event. It is vital to have people around you that care about you and have similarities to you. The community aspect of religion and the morals that religion teach you on how to live your life are the worth-while aspects of religion. The most important things I've learned from Judaism is that if you don't question anything profound, there is no point in believing it.