General Chat / The Design of Religion

A thought occured to me today. Christianity. Well...the first thought stemmed from the thought that if this religion was introduced into society today, in amongst mainstream religions, what would be our reaction? I came to the conclusion that it would not be something people would click their fingers at and say...Yes. I came to the conclusion that it would be shrugged off as a religious sect, much like the Branch Davidians, and the Moonies. And then I thought...what separates them from Christianity anyway?

Is it that religious fanatics such as David Koresh have indoctrinated their followers in such a way that they are completely brainwashed? Perhaps. But is this not the case in Christianity? I mean - chanting is a really good way to make people believe something. This happens all the time in all chapel/church services - nearly every time the Lord's Prayer is recited. Isn't this the equivalent of some mad man shouting at you? In addition to this, we also have hymns. And if you notice, all the hymns have such catchy hooks to them. I'll admit that sometimes I find myself singing "I danced in the morning when the world was begun", and "SHINE JESUS SHINE" (that one's especially annoying). So when people are singing these hymns back to themselves, are they not self-conciously taking in the words to the hymns as facts, because they are to such memorable hooks? Is the drag of Christianity really that different to the infamous religious cults we know today?

Here's another one to try. For me, the basic concept of heaven and hell will lead people into a religion. People aren't going to buy into a religion that has no reward at the end unless they are incredibly good - or even perfect people. I know many people (and this irritates me) that maintain they are Christians, whilst not actually following what the Bible teaches. To me, this is exactly what the designers of Christianity - if there were any - wanted. As long as they are followers, they are happy, and this is because people think they are going to heaven or hell if they don't believe.

I'm losing steam on this topic now, because it's getting late. However, I would very much like to hear people's thoughts on the subject.

actually, christianity wasnt something that people clicked their fingers at and said yes to...more like clicked their fingers and had the early christians brutally tortured and killed. also, it was a religious sect when it started...the original christians were called the jewish christians and were a sect of judaism.

for your second paragraph, no seems to be the answer to your questions. chanting may have occurred a long time ago, but there isnt any chanting today...reciting the Lord's Prayer is not chanting, it is merely reciting it...and whenever I recite it or hear it recited the thought of a yelling madman never comes to mind. and about hymns...many are uplifting, yes, but being memorable to the point of making them seem true is ridiculous.

third paragraph: really?! religions want their believers to be good human beings and treat their fellow man with respect, care, dignity, and love? that's preposterous. I can't believe any religion would say good is repaid with good and bad with bad....I mean honestly, religions should stop lying to us and accept that rape, theft, and murder make for a good time.

to add to the discussion though, and take a short break from intense sarcasm, I have thought about heaven and hell and tried to think of what exactly I myself believe. I believe that God loves us all no matter race or religion. I believe that God is always there waiting for us to come back to Him with happiness and forgiveness. since I believe God is all-forgiving, I don't exactly believe in Hell. I believe in Heaven and Purgatory. Everyone goes to Purgatory when they die due to sins that need to be cleansed before entering Heaven...even Jesus spent three days in Purgatory before he rose from the dead. Purgatory is basically the same as the description of Hell...the self-exclusion from God. People in Purgatory must truly be sorry for their sins and repent before entering Heaven and since some people may not be sorry, they will be in Purgatory for a very long time...maybe even forever. But being out of God's presence cannot be a plesant experience. Everyone has a chance to get into Heaven, anything else just wouldn't make sense. Hopefully I made sense there, I've never written that down before, but it always makes sense in my head...I could write more thoughts, but I have to go decorate christmas cookies.

btw, I'm not really religious at all....I havent even been to church in a year or more...just thought I'd throw that out there

Edited by AustinPowers, 23 December 2005 - 07:48 PM.

All religions really are just very large cults. I would say it is best to look at the types of people that start these cults that are seen as dangerous. The teachings of mainstream religious leaders do not enter narcissism.

Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Sidhartha, etc. don't really go into everlasting praise for themselves. Their messages mean something today despite the messenger bein gdead. I don't know a lot about David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, but I do know a bit about Koreshianity, founded by Cyrus Teed. The whole thing was about him and how great he was. He brainwashed people. He convinced people he was immortal and they continued to believe after he died.

Does it really matter if some Jewish guy died 2,000 years ago? Or that some Asian sat under a tree? Not really. When you start to look at all the mainstream religions they are all so similar its almost ridiculous.

AustinPowers, I know that this whole forum is one big popularity concept for you, but stop being a mantis and lay off on the sarcasm. It got to the extent where I was not sure if you were serious or not about various things. You're not funny, so don't try to be. I was looking for a meaningful discussion. If you are not prepared to indulge in said discussion, then please stop treating this thread like it's some school playground.

people think they are going to heaven or hell if they don't believe.

Actually you can go to Heaven if you (EDIT:) haven't heard of God - you just have to be a really good person.

Not believing, on the other hand, must be something totally different because I haven't heard anything on the subject.

Edited by laz0rz, 23 December 2005 - 08:36 PM.

AustinPowers, I know that this whole forum is one big popularity concept for you, but stop being a mantis and lay off on the sarcasm. It got to the extent where I was not sure if you were serious or not about various things. You're not funny, so don't try to be. I was looking for a meaningful discussion. If you are not prepared to indulge in said discussion, then please stop treating this thread like it's some school playground.

Thank you for being completely STUPID. In case you didn't notice, only like...three sentences out of his entire post were sarcastic.

And to laz0rz or whatever : I have no clue where you got the idea that you can get to Heaven without believing in God. The Bible pretty much expressly states that only believers that seek God's will and follow him with all their heart will get into Heaven. I can quote verses for you if you'd like.

Wait so what about people who never even have contact with Christianity in their lives? They're just automatically sent to Hell for the sin of bad chance?

AustinPowers, I know that this whole forum is one big popularity concept for you, but stop being a mantis and lay off on the sarcasm. It got to the extent where I was not sure if you were serious or not about various things. You're not funny, so don't try to be. I was looking for a meaningful discussion. If you are not prepared to indulge in said discussion, then please stop treating this thread like it's some school playground.

I'm not sure where any of that came from...I rarely even post here. And sorry if sarcasm confuses you. Maybe you're upset that I don't agree with...anything you said...but you'll have that in a meaningful discussion, and if you can't handle a different opinion than your own then you shouldn't be posting your opinions.

This thread is about to deliver.

To Minnie:

Not believing, on the other hand, must be something totally different because I haven't heard anything on the subject.

So don't try to put words in my mouth.

EDIT: Oh, wait for a second. I saw Jelly's post and was pissed.

Actually you can go to Heaven if you (EDIT:) haven't heard of God - you just have to be a really good person.

So, to end this part of the thread, PLEASE, look before you post.
</discussion on that subject>

Edited by laz0rz, 23 December 2005 - 09:52 PM.

Wait so what about people who never even have contact with Christianity in their lives?  They're just automatically sent to Hell for the sin of bad chance?

Actually, according to Catholicism, no one is sent to Hell. It is the self-exclusion from God...so people choose to go to Hell. I was raised a Catholic and went to Catholic schools from 6th to 12th grade....so I got to learn first-hand how contradictory the Catholic Church is....I'm not sure what the teaching is about people with no contact with Christianity though....I think they can still go to Heaven. The biggest contradiction I've found in the Catholic Church's teachings is that the Catechism says everyone has free-will and to not express that free-will is a sin...yet it also says everyone must accept the ex-cathedra teachings of the Pope into their hearts and minds and not truly believing a teaching is a sin....there are several other contradictions as well...

To Minnie:
So don't try to put words in my mouth.

EDIT: Oh, wait for a second. I saw Jelly's post and was pissed.
So, to end this part of the thread, PLEASE, look before you post.
</discussion on that subject>

Actually...it really has nothing to do whether you're a good person or not. For instance you can be some really nice tribal guy from the deepest jungles of Africa, but if you're an atheist, God's still not going to let you in Heaven.

Trust me though (Jelly Welly), when I say that it would be extremely hard for someone to have never heard of God.

What if it's a really nice polytheistic tribe?

Yeah, as far as I know, the Bible never talks about hell as being a place that people are punished eternally. That's just something someone made up along the way, and people accepted. The closest thing to that view of hell would just be what AP said, that is, the absense of God. And I agree with the idea that people who don't know about God could very likely still go to heaven if in some alternate universe where they were given a good chance (not even just a missionary coming by for a day or something, but a really good chance) they would've been all for God. But, I don't know that there's anything that supports that, just like the old idea of hell being a place where people get poked in the ass by demons.

Why is lazors trying to be all proper and such?

Personally, I'm more or less agnostic. I have no idea whether God exists or not. But I have no use for the bullshit of organized religion.

Why? Well, most of the shit they tell you has little to do with God. I mean, even if God exists, do you think he gives a flying rat's ass who you fuck and when? Seriously. The preachers who tell me that I have God looking over my shoulder every second piss me off.

And, please... if God hates sinners and has omnipresence, why the fuck can people sin. Hmm? There's no good answer provided for that.

Religion today isn't about God. It's about politics. Control.

Oh, and on the subject of Heaven and Hell, apparently Ghandi is roasting his chops right now. One of the greatest men ever went to hell cause he's not Christian. That's bullshit. Ghandi was a greater man than most Christians.

Add to this that the texts are all open to interpretation, and religion today is bunk, IMHO.

...Not to impose on anyone's beliefs, of course.

-ACE

What does religion have to do with this:


Seriously, that shit is fucked up.

Is it that religious fanatics such as David Koresh have indoctrinated their followers in such a way that they are completely brainwashed? Perhaps. But is this not the case in Christianity? I mean - chanting is a really good way to make people believe something. This happens all the time in all chapel/church services - nearly every time the Lord's Prayer is recited. Isn't this the equivalent of some mad man shouting at you? In addition to this, we also have hymns. And if you notice, all the hymns have such catchy hooks to them. I'll admit that sometimes I find myself singing "I danced in the morning when the world was begun", and "SHINE JESUS SHINE" (that one's especially annoying). So when people are singing these hymns back to themselves, are they not self-conciously taking in the words to the hymns as facts, because they are to such memorable hooks? Is the drag of Christianity really that different to the infamous religious cults we know today?

Here's another one to try. For me, the basic concept of heaven and hell will lead people into a religion. People aren't going to buy into a religion that has no reward at the end unless they are incredibly good - or even perfect people. I know many people (and this irritates me) that maintain they are Christians, whilst not actually following what the Bible teaches. To me, this is exactly what the designers of Christianity - if there were any - wanted. As long as they are followers, they are happy, and this is because people think they are going to heaven or hell if they don't believe.

I'm losing steam on this topic now, because it's getting late. However, I would very much like to hear people's thoughts on the subject.

I have thought during saying the Lord's Prayer that it was really disturbing how it was being said and how many people were doing it at the same time. I haven't thought more into it, however...

As for Hymns, they are there to worship--to praise--God with. It's like a prayer of exaltment for everyone to join in to. To be thankful that you are on this Earth, etc.

The Bible hardly mentions hell. Christians, in the early days, borrowed many ideas of the afterlife (as well as holidays, etc.) from tribes and civilizations they (the Roman Catholics) conquered, so that it would make the conquered easier to convert. Most of the ideas of Hell come from Dante's Inferno.

If you guys are done, then I'm gonna have to put a

</discussion on that subject>

on the discussion that I started.

And, please... if God hates sinners and has omnipresence, why the fuck can people sin.  Hmm?  There's no good answer provided for that.

Freedom of choice! It's what the whole damn Adam and Eve thing was about. They chose to sin after Satan tempted them, we still choose to sin because of Satan, and God doesn't force us not to sin. God doesn't control everything that happens on the planet, he just set the ball in motion, it hit a mud puddle, and he intervenes from time to time and will eventually pick the ball up and rinse it off.