H2H3 / H2H FINALS Game 1 - Hurricanes vs Flying Germans

demonstrates that you don't have to have use bunch of custom scenery to create an amazing rollercoaster park with RCT2

Not sure about that comment, this park alongside 99.9% of others is full of custom scenery. Unless you meant the emphasis to be on the bunch implying that too many people just load scenery piece after scenery piece, then you would be right.

commecnt on fataway in bit

read the whole thing in full. i dont think it relies on what was in the bench, moreso what was used to compose the park. the park idealizing the coaster, and the environment around suiting it instead if the other way around, which is where others seem to go for parkmaking.

anywho, what i thought is simply put.
Flying German's park excecuted the thought of what H2H is about.
Hurricanes was too safe imo.

I dont think the German's park was messy at all. I like the overgrown, dense look. I think that was the style purposely done. Some areas of the park made me realize that. Plus there were some nice little parts too it.

I did enjoy the duelers in the Cane's park. the atmosphere was great too. I just think the german's took it a step farther.

As much as I like the Hurricanes' park, in the very same way that people got tired of the MoLLesters putting out a series of futuristic parks I'm tired of the Hurricanes cranking out "nice" RCT2 park after "nice" RCT2 park and the crowds falling for all of them. You know - the wholesome small architecture consisting of 1x1, 2x1 and 2x2 buildings spread out nicely in soft colors. Aviara Cove was original enough to avoid falling into that category but this park immediately does. I can tell who built the park and he is one of the parkmakers I most admire but he needs to stretch himself into hiding the good stuff beneath the surface. The architecture in the Hurricanes' park, what is on the surface, seems designed to immediately promote a "that looks nice" impulse in the viewer's mind - a "that's what I like to see" sort of reaction. Because it is what way too many people like to see - it seems exactly like the amalgam of the currently favored "NE RCT2 style." I'm sure the excellent parkmaker behind this park wasn't intending for it to come out looking like that was its purpose but it kinda does. There are about 15 parkmakers that are trying or succeeding in latching on to this style now and to me it's getting a little tiresome. Not to mention the 50 or more people that are probably going to vote for the Hurricanes' park because it's what they like to see. Come on people - you have to realize that whether the parkmaker intended it or not, a lot of the favorable reaction you get when looking at that stuff probably results from its effective exploitation of a social construct (what is established as "nice"), even if that is inadvertent. To the parkmaker who I believe made this, if you are who I think you are then you are one of the most skilled parkmakers I have ever seen, and one for whom my admiration is most pronounced out of anyone, but you have to dare to stick something new and radical in here and there - even if it looks a bit discomforting at times. I know that you weren't just trying to give the people what they want, and I know that you are far, far above that in both skill and mindset, but that's kind of what it looks like here.

The Germans' park dares to be different and to step into realms that aren't immediately visually pleasing, but emerge rewarding nonetheless. It ain't pretty, but to me that is OK because it is throwing around new stuff and experimenting with it. A lot of people may cringe at that statement because things in it are noticeably taken from Fright Nights and Ghost Cell Crisis. That is one major drawback of this park. But to me it is more admirable because it dares to circumvent what is currently accepted as aesthetically pleasing, to sacrifice that for the sake of creating enchantment, originality and fantasy. To name one example, I find it perfectly respectable that JKay criticizes the overabundance of foliage - but is it really a bad thing, or just something people are not accustomed to? I believe it's part of the theme and the imaginative world which is created here. With the exception of the part which resembled Fright Nights, I found the coaster Storyteller fantastic and adventurous. I will admit that this park has multiple flaws which bring it down from the clouds, if you'll pardon the pun. But I think that if you look at these two parks completely objectively - and that means considering that something you may find visually attractive may just register that way because it is what you like to see in a park - this park comes out on top.

posix is going to orgasm when he looks at this round.

This isnt even close. How can you not vote for the tree?

VOTE = Germans

Germans showed skill, Hurricanes showed the same recycled RCT2 look that hovers over most parks these days. It's nice, but just as unoriginal as Kumba claims the tree thing in Germans to be.

I agree with Panic - the Hurricanes release another "nice" park... but to me it doesn't have the "WOW" factor that The Faraway Tree has. Sure, some ideas were copied, but in the end it turned out to be a far more superior park than Gothenburg.

This wasn't even close for me.

Sure, you can say the Canes didn't take risks, but I'd like to see a single non-parkmaker make anything that nice, because it's tough.

Honestly, I felt that I could have executed the Germans' idea better. And that is where my vote lies. IMO Gotheburg was perfect, and Tree was a good idea executed in a mediocre fashion.

For me, RCT is definately about having fun, but if it looks like something I wouldn't even be proud of making, it's not going to get my vote... [/rant]

"Nice" or whatever is just a style, not a theme. I've never seen the german village theme done before? How is it cliched?

Faraway tree just had good land elevation. In fact.. it was kind of annoying because it was so high that you couldn't even see the whole thing from some angles. If the park was on a piece of flat land, it would only be decent...

Both are absolutly amazing efforts and both teams desirve to win, this reminds me of last week (well more like 3 weeks ago ) when we beat the Seal Clubbers except that the parks are both 10X better than mine then and 8X better than Jkays. 

And that one will remain a mystery forever.

Hi

I think both parks were absolutely wonderful

The tree was fabulous but in the end I had to go with Götheburg.

I generally lean to the more creative and crowded the better, but I have to say that Götheburg
was simply stunning and ultimately the coasters were what decided it for me.

This year has been very creative and fun for H2H competition and everyone involved has done an outstanding job!

This isnt even close.  How can you not vote for the tree? 

VOTE = Germans

Okay I can't see the parks. But this is pretty much what I was thinking.

And that one will remain a mystery forever.

Shit happens man.

I can't wait to hear Ed's take on this whole thing, even if we have to wait a couple weeks for it.

Personally I love both and funny thing, I believe I could build something rather similar to either of them if that was my goal. Sure if I did it it would be quite as tall as the Tree nor would it be as atmospheric and perfected as Götheburg because that's not how I do things.

Oh and this is only the beginning, this year we're going to use all 3 matchs to decide the winner, I'm almost sure of it.

ride6

This isnt even close.  How can you not vote for the tree? 

VOTE = Germans

Easy man. I voted for Gotheberg. This in my opinion was gimmick vs. pure skill. Gotheberg did everything it set out to do completely perfectly to me. The duelers were tremendous, the theming was surreal, and the architecture was spot on. Not to mention the perfect atmosphere the whole park had. Fatha', you were the one talking about gimmicks in the Pro Tour voting, but come on. No doubt, The Faraway Tree rocks. But one of these is as close to subtle RCT perfection, and the other is a somewhat sloppy, unfinished looking, borrowed, but flashy entry. In most rounds I think the Faraway Tree would have dominated, but Gotheberg epitomizes RCT beauty here. If we continue to pick flashier parks that aren't as skillfully done, then we are going to be left with a site full of hollow parkmakers that do everything for the first glance look only. I loved Gotheberg, number three H2H of this year for me, behind Cajamarca and Ghost Cell, and right before Aviera Cove.
Great job Hurricanes.

(Very good job to the Germans as well, you've more then proven you deserve to be in this position. Sorry if I seemed to go off on your park, I really did enjoy it.)

Honestly, I really didnt think either of these parks were so "amazing"

Canes - The dueler, being cool and all, was fucking slow. Its funny that I seem to be the only one noting this. There were brakes everywhere and it crawled through all the inversions. The timing was very nice however. This park also has the simplistic, same-old RCT2 style we've seen for a while now (well ive only seen recently, but thats besides the point.) It looks bare in some places and the coaster completely dominates everything, leaving many a bare spot and little room for pretty architecture.

Germans - What the fuck? I first looked at this thing and thought it was amazing, but its WAY too overdone. The plants and minimalist archy is just pounded in, and many of the ideas are stemmed from other parks. The coaster in this park was quite amazing however, and a perfect example of how amazing adventure rides can actually be. This park did look very messy however, but i can see the tremendous amount of work that was put into it (the clouds and castle are great.)

In the end, i had to go for the Germans because they took a very different style and had a better main attraction in my mind.

This should be close.

Easy man. I voted for Gotheberg. This in my opinion was gimmick vs. pure skill. Gotheberg did everything it set out to do completely perfectly to me. The duelers were tremendous, the theming was surreal, and the architecture was spot on. Not to mention the perfect atmosphere the whole park had. Fatha', you were the one talking about gimmicks in the Pro Tour voting, but come on. No doubt, The Faraway Tree rocks. But one of these is as close to subtle RCT perfection, and the other is a somewhat sloppy, unfinished looking, borrowed, but flashy entry. In most rounds I think the Faraway Tree would have dominated, but Gotheberg epitomizes RCT beauty here. If we continue to pick flashier parks that aren't as skillfully done, then we are going to be left with a site full of hollow parkmakers that do everything for the first glance look only. I loved Gotheberg, number three H2H of this year for me, behind Cajamarca and Ghost Cell, and right before Aviera Cove.
Great job Hurricanes.

Well, if Faraway tree was a gimmick, then so was Erwindale Forest.


This vote is easy for me, and its easy for the same reason Erwindale was for me (Although I dont know if Erwindale went up against a good park). Gotheburg was in no way RCT perfection, but it was VERY good. The theming was good (Im not as blown away by it as others are), and everybody saying that they took an original approach to the park is bogus imo. If I may recall, medievalistic themes have been done in the past, and if Faraway steals ideas then this does as well.

Here is why Faraway Tree is FAR better than Gotheburg:
- Originality: Yes both have been done before, but how on earth is a medieval village more original then a fanciful tree poking through clouds, housing a coaster that not only reaches the clouds but dives to the trees roots.
- Effort and Planning: Gotheburg looks like it could have been planned in one day, constructed in say....1 month. Faraway looks like it took REAL planning (IE, whether or not to add clouds, a city in the clouds, architecture on the tree, design of the coaster and which parts of the tree it weaves through, etc etc).
- Coasters: The Dueler is good, but Faraway's coaster is just more skillfully done (Also it is an adventure ride, so I guess u cant compare the two). The land interaction (SEE the loop) is good, the ascent and descent into the clouds is good, and the interaction it has with the entire H2H map is phenomenal.
- Theming: Again, I just can't spot the incredible theming in Gotheburg. It is good, but we have seen better (See Aviara Cove). The castles in the clouds, little architecture on the actual tree, and root system is phenomenal. Its no contest here in my mind.


If i were rating the two parks, Gothburg would probably get a 7 maybe 8/10 and Faraway Tree would get a 9.5/10. It just not close in my mind.

I also liked how if you don't count the water (and possibly even if you do), the Flying Germans' entry is physically taller than it is wide. How often do you see that.

I think the best way for me to describe my thoughts on these parks is to address some of the things that have been said so far in this topic.

[quote]The Forgotten Tree, was lovely as well, but way too busy for my likings. Too much going on, there wasn't any real focus. It was just over-loaded IMO.[/quote]=Geoff
I think that the name 'The Faraway Tree' suggests that this park is based around a tree, or trees, which fill up most of the map. 'The Storyteller' appears to tell a story about said tree(s), by winding around the tree(s). I'd say the focus in this park was on the tree(s).

[quote]The Faraway Tree had to many "borrowed" ideas for me.[/quote]=Alchemist L7
I can see that this park holds similarities with other parks, but I don't understand how this can (a) be used as a negative against The Faraway Tree and not Gotheburg, or ( be used as a negative against it in the first place. But i'll talk about this in response to...

[quote]needless to say, i voted for my team, but i wanted to comment on the flying germans' park. as other people have been getting at, i think it's lack of originality really hurts it. i mean, when i look at it i see so many other parks. it never really establishes itself as original work, but rather looks like a composite of a couple cool parks (namely fright nights, ghost cell crisis and even aviara cove to an extent). i mean, parts of the coaster look exactly like fright nights, the loop in the waterfall with the 1/4 blocks around it? i mean come on. and then the parts that don't look like fright nights look like ghost cell crisis. the clouds holding up the coaster in the sky, please a little more original. on top of this, i think the park's pretty sloppy. the buildings in the sky seemed pretty weak to me and also, the clouds weren't convincing at all, but rather looked just corny.

honestly, i'm not trying to sway any voters at all. i just feel like a lot of ne work is losing originality. i wish people would really put creative thought into their work instead of basing it all off of other's work. tell me if i'm off base here; people are seeing these similarities, right?[/quote]=metalface
I disagree almost entirely with this post. Yes I can see some ideas in The Faraway Tree that have been used before, but I can also see how they have been adapted. Firstly, the loop in the waterfall with the blocks is an adapted version of the multi-inversion in Fright Nights. I think this is a fantastic idea and am thoroughly pleased to see it being used again. I'm sure several people felt the same way when ghost train windows caught on - it's nice to see good ideas being put to use, no? Secondly, I believe I have only seen clouds twice before in RCT parks. Werewilly used corkscrew coaster to simulate clouds around his Nirvana hypercoaster in his Paradise Park around 4 years ago. Gymkid once showed a screen of clouds made from 1/4 tile blocks. I fail to see how the use of clouds is not original or exciting. Also, regarding how 'convincing' the clouds were: i'm sure that if you can suspend disbelief and accept that the 'trees' in this park represent trees, you can equally accept that the 'clouds' in this park represent clouds. Artist suggests 'puffy' clouds, but these would obscure the top of the tree. It seems the makers of this park have made many concessions to the lazy viewer, and I expect this was one of them. I agree that people shouldn't base their parks 'all off of other's work', but I fail to see how The Faraway Tree is guilty of this.
I also fail to understand how, even if you still believe The Faraway Tree is unoriginal, you do not believe that Gotheburg is unoriginal. If I were to criticise Gotheburg in a similar way to how you've criticised The Faraway Tree I could say:

[quote]needless to say, i voted for my team, but i wanted to comment on the hurricanes' park. as other people have been getting at, i think it's lack of originality really hurts it. i mean, when i look at it i see so many other parks. it never really establishes itself as original work, but rather looks like a composite of a couple cool parks (namely Grovelands Bay, Ville des Lumieres and even Mystik Realms to an extent). i mean, parts of the coaster look exactly like Grovelands Bay, the colours and some of the duels? i mean come on. and then the parts that don't look like Grovelands Bay look like Mystik Realms. the tower surrounding the drop ride? please a little more original. on top of this, i think the park's pretty average. the buildings around the entrance seem pretty normal to me, and also, the layouts weren't convincing at all, but rather had excessive meandering and uneven brakes to ensure correct dueling. [/quote]
But I wouldn't say something like that because it would be entirely one-sided and unreasonable.

[quote]The coaster design was certainly unique and definitely fit its name, but I can't really say I liked the whole ride though. It seemed to have a lot of unnessecary winding, twisting flat turns before it got to the actual coaster. [/quote]=JKay
I'd have thought that the meanders and twisting sections were necessary for the coaster to 'fit its name'?

[quote]The rest of the park was pretty bad imo, especially the foliage. Could you guys cram some more foliage in there please? Geez. I realize its part of the theme, but the foliage seriously made me feel like I was looking one big blob of blah.[/quote]=JKay
Most trees are generally 'one big blob' of foliage. But I don't think you are giving the makers enough credit here - the foliage is appropriate at each location and there is method to its placement (check the very cool creepers of jungle flowers).

[quote]And the architecture green too?...ouch I had some issues with the landscaping too, but it wasn't quite as bad as the foliage.[/quote]=JKay
Personally I can't think of a more fitting colour for tree-themed architecture. I'd hardly expect fluorescent pink, anyway. The only 'issue' I had with the landscaping was how awesome it was.

[quote]Then the underwater stuff. A good idea, but not done very well. It was completely glitched when i looked at it.[/quote]=JKay
This I actually agree with. The park actually lost appeal due to the inclusion of that area.

[quote]Not much to fault except the foliage was bare in places and kind of sloppy. [/quote]=CoasterForce
This I disagree with - I enjoyed the greenery in Gotheburg immensely, especially in places where it was absent.

[quote]Come on people - you have to realize that whether the parkmaker intended it or not, a lot of the favorable reaction you get when looking at that stuff probably results from its effective exploitation of a social construct (what is established as "nice"), even if that is inadvertent.[/quote]=Panic
I suppose this is often the case, although I feel you are giving Gotheburg less credit than it deserves. It is an incredibly well constructed park. The logistics of duelers on a map of that size are very challenging, yet here they fit in seamlessly. The dive loop over the path, the turnaround in the corner, the brake runs over the initial drops...immaculately constructed. In spite of the theme being pleasing-to-the-NE-eye, this park is nonetheless very well made and has far more depth than many of the parks you may be referring to.

[quote]"Nice" or whatever is just a style, not a theme. I've never seen the german village theme done before? How is it cliched?[/quote]=Jacko Shanty
I don't agree that is has never been done before, because medieval themes have been one of the steadfasts of parks since the very beginning. However, I do believe that that fact shouldn't be used as a negative in judging the parks, because I am fully for people using themes that have been done before.

[quote]Faraway tree just had good land elevation. In fact.. it was kind of annoying because it was so high that you couldn't even see the whole thing from some angles. If the park was on a piece of flat land, it would only be decent... [/quote]=Jacko Shanty
Oh God I can't believe this quote. First you appear to be detracting from The Faraway Tree because you are too lazy to rotate the view. That pretty much negates your opinion. Secondly, I could equally say that if GCC were on flat land it would only be decent. And if I did, i'd sound as ridiculous as you do. Because the whole point of these parks is that they AREN'T on flat land. How else would you have the stunning multi-level coasters and waterfalls? How else could you portray alternative dimensions or immensely tall trees? I find it extraordinary that you could think something like that.


I'm going to vote for Gotheburg because:
- the coasters were more interesting to watch than The Storyteller. For starters, The Storyteller didn't make use of banners or any Readme to back up what was actually going on. Also, once it had started its yellow section, the ride was quite unfocussed - apart from the enclosed loop I would have liked to have seen more set-pieces or small intensely-themed sections.
- the atmosphere was stronger than in The Faraway Tree. For all its foliage and storytelling, The Faraway Tree lacked the togetherness that I like in H2H parks. There appeared to be few individually themed buildings/sections (of the two sub-areas, only the clouds worked, and even the buildings there were strangely anonymous).
- there was a lack of subsidiary rides in The Faraway Tree
- basically, I enjoyed Gotheburg more, at first glance and on further exploration.

I hope that the next match-ups are as interesting as this one!

I vote Germans, 'cos i am on their team. Although i must admit, that is one hell of an entry by the Hurricanes...

-X-

Canes - The dueler, being cool and all, was fucking slow. Its funny that I seem to be the only one noting this. There were brakes everywhere and it crawled through all the inversions.

You have a very slow computer?

Your comments make no sense to me at least. Look at the speeds while the coasters go throught he inversions... they're constantly above 20 MPH and even near 30 in some cases. That's exactly the same as real life B&M coasters, and you can hardly say real coasters "crawl" through the inversions.

Maybe that's why no one else has pointed it out.


One thing that bugged me.. the adventure part of The Faraway Tree seemed unfocused and sprawling just for the point of sprawling. The track intersects itself repeated and wanders around, but there's no apparent reason for it. It's like the coaster is running in circles just to stress how nice the surroundings are, but that's a shallow tactic. Once the coaster got going, things picked up, but in its adventure phase, it thoroughly perplexed me. That was a significant minus.

Also, on the originality thing... this may be difficult to understand, but TFT presents itself as being original while Gotheburg does not. Thus, TFT is sort of being deceiving in my eyes. When you construct a whole map based on one thing, you're saying that this is creative and worthwhile, yet it features too many borrowed ideas to match up against something the caliber of Gotheburg. Now, I wouldn't be saying this if TFT as going up against... say... ride6's solo from the first round. But Gotheburg's quality is high enough where you start considering nitpicks like this.

And yes, that means I can apply the same criticism to Rockwood Prison had it gone up against Gotheberg this week (in an alternate universe).

Meanwhile, our team's entry makes no guise of being original... it's all about creating something beautiful. It's not "playing it safe" or whatever. It's about executing skill. Don't once or a million times, I defy most people to replicate something like this to such detail. This park isn't even about adding up good things. It's subtly efficient, and it shows a case of where sometimes, you have to take things away to make it look good.

In short, neither are original, but TFT presents itself as being original when it's not, while Gotheberg is honest and spectacular.

That, IMO, should factor into the decision.


That said, I'm glad that this is a close race. It should be. I was afraid that TFT's flashiness would sway people to vote for it immediately and thus detract from the parity of both entries. Perhaps I'm biased, but I do think Gotheburg is a little better for the reasons I've stated, but that's not to say the Germans' entry sucks. In fact, I'd be willing to put it in this season's top ten. But it's Finals Time, and we have great quality here. And realism wins out this round for me.

Flying Germans get my vote easily. Hurricanes looks like someone had a screen of Dueling Dragons on the task bar the whole time they made it, how someone can say this is more original then The Faraway Tree is beyond me.