Park / Isole Calabria
- 22-July 05
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90.63%(required: none) Spotlight
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111 Comments
Emergo Offline
the 'older' handycraft-men in the 'metier' look down on the newer, younger ones that get appreciation for their work that they could only accomplish by means of/thanks to the newer, easier-to-handle modern techniques. And many of them cannot accept that the newer ones have not gone through their own struggle to learn to master the handycraft, and still get appreciation.
Nevertheless, Panic, I agree with you, that the basics of the 'old' craftsmenship can be, and are, of invaluable worth, also to the newer generation. But I am also sure that the really talented of this newer generation will, by one way or the other, acquire insight/practice in how the former handicraft was built up, and use that, together with the new techniques that are available now, to make amazing 'products' (RCT2/3 in this sense)that combine the best things of the old handymanship and the best things of the now, newer, available techniques. Even if they have never gone through the effort of making a nice-looking park in LL, the real talented ones will have the understanding of how things like that work, and combined with real talent and feeling for the newer techniques they will make wonderful things.
Not that there will be so many of these, but from the real talented in only LL there are/were not so many either I think?.
I don't value the one above the other (LL/RCt2-3 or v.v.). I just appreciate everyone who creates something nice, thought out, detailed, dedicated. That the results are not always to my personal likings, is my problem, and not theirs or anyone else's.
Panic Offline
Corkscrewed Offline
Panic, you bring up a good point in that the "newer generation" doesn't go through the same patience and stuff, but you can take it a step further. The truly great (of the new generation) will thus take the game even further than before, creating new innovations through the "technology" that they have. They will find things that you couldn't do in LL but are equally amazing. Stacking is easier, but then, maybe someone will couple this with zeroed clearances to make extremely intricate structures full of articulated detail. Our (RCT 2 players') pallette is custom scenery, and our challenge is to find new way to combine these things into something new and exciting, just as LL players' pallete is what's in LL and the Beast Trainer, and their challenge is to find new ways to articulate detail with their bulkier tools.
To put it in another, slightly exaggerated way, the first people built carts out of wood and wheels, and that was quite an amazing feat. And as they advanced, horse-pulled carriages became more intricate and ornate. Lets say that's like LL players, since both sort of have to hand make their own things. Along comes machination, which makes these old arts obsolete. Well, fine, we can build things more quickly, but now, we're challenged to come up with better combinations and looks. Now, you need to come up with a car that runs well, looks sleek, is quiet, and is safe, has a sturdy body, etc... etc... In the same way, RCT 2 players have more tools and can put things together more easily, but the challenge then becomes to make something even greater.
Before cars, people could make a carriage by hand and that'd be amazing, but after the dawn of the machine age, simply making something like that with a machine was no longer special. So people had to stretch the limits again and create newer, better things. I see LL vs RCT 2 in a similar light... I can make BGSS in RCT and it wouldn't really be amazing, since I can stack stuff and I have the scenery to articulate that detail. So to make something in RCT 2 that awes, I have to make it even more detailed than LL, and use more creative ideas and themes. All the while, I still must retaining the masterful landscaping and awesome coasters that BGSS, a LL park, has.
So in that way, RCT 2 is harder, because you must do more to be considered elite.
Phatage Offline
I'm not saying every section in every park should be top notch thrills everywhere and whatnot, what I'm saying is that all parks shouldn't be entirely the opposite. Busch does a reasonably good job theming their parks, and they all have their nice sections and then they have their medium and exciting parts; variation is the key. Disney and Universal both have this as well, and minus the theming so do CF and SF and Paramount and practically every park that hasn't gone out of business within its first couple of years. People don't think when they're building parks that parks exist for the sole commercial purpose of pleasing the public, and like all things to make money of course. Parks on ne are made to achieve a spotlight in which the last three or four released parks at ne have all gotten because of the slow times, and now comes my broken record phrase: We need to build parks for the peeps that would be riding the rides, seeing the shows, paying the cash, eating the food, and being dragged into these parks because their kid likes a particular cartoon character. Parks do not make a dime when a bird flys over and takes a ten minute glance at the scenery below and think its spotlight worthy. Rob was built for its guest, this park didn't.
Turtle the thing I'm most mad about is I guess I had hope. When you came to me and told me you didn't want to build another mountain woodie, I guess I was being wishful and thought maybe that spirit would apply to other categories in your parkmaking. Except for the asian section, which I did take another look at and have to say it was very good, the fact that the woodie was yet another mountain woodie pretty much summed up the rest of the park for me, and it was a big let down. And now I guess I'm suppossed to say "sorry" to justify this entire post or something like that.
Corkscrewed Offline
But I am....
<-- shhhhh
Panic Offline
Where does that leave us? Personally I think that the games are about equal in difficulty and task if you put these above two facets together. But, as I will get to, I'm not sure that really matters. I think LL is a more efficient device for honing skills and technical abilities, while RCT2 is better for setting high goals and accomplishing them. I still would advocate LL as both a parkmaking device and as a practice device for those who do want to move onto difficult and great things in RCT2 later on. As I said before, a possible happy medium is that the skills you acquire and hone playing LL can help you overcome the greater tasks at hand in RCT2. I wish that people would take advantage of this possible medium but I can't make anyone do so. But I think you are right, if I interpreted you correctly, in that there's sort of a glass ceiling in RCT2 which most people, with the possible exception of SAC, have yet to break through, and you know what, I wouldn't hesitate to attribute this to the fact that so many great RCT2ers today have never played 5 minutes of LL in their lives, or not in three years. They need more experience, in my opinion, in being able to master the small technical challenges before they move onto the big challenge that defines a truly great RCT2 park that you are alluding to. So I think that where we disagree, Cork, is actually where we agree most. I don't think that we need to compare games anymore, but rather think about how the ways in which each game is more difficult than the other can help a parkmaker move towards a common end. You're probably right in that the overall tasks at hand in RCT2 are bigger bites than in LL. And I believe the best way for someone to be able to master those is to play LL, in which the overall parkmaking tasks are less daunting but the technical challenges throughout are greater. Because they know how to handle the small stuff in LL, they will be able to handle the big stuff in RCT2 (which can often be comprised of the small stuff). That is a medium in which both games can serve their purposes equally owing to their respective challenges.
cBass Offline
I don't always agree with Phatage but I think here he's spot on.
Then again, I'm not making any full-size parks so I can't really talk.
Corkscrewed Offline
See what happens when you have a civil, well thought out discussion kids?
Also, one of these days, we'll have a Spotlight where the good majority of the replies are actually about the park and not some philosophical discussion or critique of something inspired by the park!
CoasterForce Offline
Entrance area: Kind of a weak area IMO, the pathing seemed too random and the whole area was kind of "misguided." Sorry I can't think of a better term for it but that's all I can think of. The coaster was interesting but that was about it. Not enough force to really make it stand out. The colors in the area all blended wonderfully, though.
Chinese area: Haha, I never expected this. There looked to be so many details here, and with the wonderful blend of colors this area is the most memorable in the park. The water coaster had some cool interactions, especially the beginning with the waterfall. I'm sure I'll find lots more to see in this area when I look at it all again later.
Medieval-like area: Believe it or not, this had my favorite coaster in the park, that woodie. The pacing was excellent and it was very visually pleasing, with some good diagonals and banked turns to create a very appealing look. Also this is a case where the straight track pieces worked well, which is hard to pull off. The archy in the area was nice but not memorable.
Molas area: Didn't have much to do with the rest of the park IMO, no matter what way you look at it, but it was still decent. The coaster was interesting to say the least with some good pacing and good flow throughout. However the theming in the area was weak and this was probaly my least favorite area in the park.
Overall it was a very nice park, and I hope to find more to like about this when I look at it a few more times later. You really have a good eye for beauty and atmosphere, man. I can't wait to see what you do in the future, but until then, work on making your areas more memorable (more like that Chinese area) and you'll be the best in the business. Right now, you're up with the elite, though.
8.5/10
JKay Offline
Fatha' Offline
Well, I would tend to sort of disagree.
RCT2 isnt hard to make something look good....the custom scenery does that for you. Ive always stated that most buildings in RCT2 arent great looking because of the designer, its because of the tools he has to work with. In LL, you are FORCED to utilize YOUR skill, not someones elses, to make a good building. I would argue that custom scenery tends to ruin peoples ideas for areas....
For instance, had I built BGSS in RCT2 with all of the custom scenery in hand, I would have possibly made a poorer park due to all the detail that i thought I would have needed to make what should be a simplistic area too complex. El Dorado would have ended up consisting of buildings crammed with gold pillars and foilage pots, custom scenery stacked on every inch of the buildings, and overall would have looked cluttered and disastrous. Same goes for Amazonia....which probably would have ended up so dense you wouldnt see through it. LL forced me to look at the overall picture....which was not seeing how detailed and pretty you can make a building look but how the overall setup helped to fulfill the initial purpose...which is making a THEMED area (not a bunch of overthemed buildings) with the proper atmosphere. Did you notice why the asian area in this new spotlight was loved so much? Was it really the custom scenery? What did people look at first and say "woow, thats is sweet?" Its the roofing, the LL background behind the area. Most of the best areas in RCT2 are LL based with a slight hint of detail (FOr examples see the asian area in IC, Lemuria in ROB). The parts where the asian area did the worst was where the over-theming took place and the emphasis on atmosphere ended.
In my opinion, themed areas arent made by the individual buildings, they are made by what the sum of everything created adds up to....When I look at a themed area and approach it, I want to create the best atmosphere possible and make it seem like you are experiencing something while viewing it. Thats the basis of BGSS and everything I am doing with it, and I think that is what every other parkmaker should in fact do. Dont let the custom scenery dictate the looks of an area, you dictate how the custom scenery fits in and you dictate how the area looks.
Corkscrewed Offline
Ruin my parade why don't you!!!!
It's cuz you've never seen my obviously unarguably superior stuff....
Nah, I'd say you're right. My point was similar.... that you have to go beyond just putting the scenery pieces together to make it look truly good in RCT 2... you have to add that extra oomph.
Panic Offline
But actually, a lot of what Fatha' said fits perfectly with what we concluded earlier, particularly the last bit. The ability to decide and discriminate as to what will look good where is a skill best honed when one does not have a lot of tools in one's grasp. There is evidence to support this. There have been several cases of n00bs coming into the Advertising District and advertising RCT2 stuff that is made entirely of custom scenery and looks like absolute shit because they have no idea, no sense, of where to put what. I always think to myself, "These people need LL." They need some restriction at first so that they can hone organizational skills, and only after that is it appropriate for them to become accustomed to using a wider range of scenery. The point that LL also encourages tasteful use of scenery, rather than cramming it in, is also one that makes sense. You've got less to choose from, so you're likely to choose carefully where you put it lest an entire area begin to resemble a vastly overgrown plant specimen or something. I had an experience similar to that recently while beginning an area and that is one that I will be careful not to repeat.
Fatha' does miss the point that custom scenery does not an amazingly inventive park make - case in point Ghost Cell Crisis; the scenery wasn't calling out to be used as floating islands in space, it took the imaginations of Blitz and DJ to come up with that one. But how much that point applies depends on the situation. Some of the Disney parks that I've seen basically could not have gotten past the first square without custom scenery. On the other hand, your own park, WDE, is a brilliant antithesis to that statement. I'm encouraged by the examples that Turtle and artist and slob and others put forward of refined uses of scenery. As Turtle himself said, no tile in IC was built without exquisite attention to detail. It's these folks that would probably be best suited right now to make a great LL park, because they would still be able to carry across a lot of style practices. I wonder what the result of parkmakers such as them taking up LL would be, and I hope that they do too.
P.S. TURTLE WHERE ARE YOU ON AIM?!?!?!??!?!?111
GigaForce Offline
Im like Woah SWEE- wait, nevermind.
Corkscrewed Offline
(see Meadowbrooke Falls)
Kumba Offline
FYI you know what tuesday marked for NE spotlights?
It makes it over a year since someone from the US has won a spotlight, Meretrix being the last.
Panic Offline
Kumba Offline
Corkscrewed Offline
Panic Offline
My favorite RCT2 full sizers:
1. RoB
2. Bijou
3. IC