New Element - Park - Liovaä

Panic Offline

Will people please stop blindly backing the fucking status quo and take a look around?
Coaster building standards at this site have gone nowhere in 5 years, while theming standards have gone from the Stone Age to microscopic detail. The layouts that people are mindlessly plopping down in their parks nowadays are on average worse than those being made in 2002. If people appreciated the "whole package" so much, which means valuing coasters somewhere near as much as theming, THAT WOULDN'T HAVE FUCKING HAPPENED.

Why did it happen? People have gotten complacent that a pretty good semi-imitation of some real-life coasters does just fine and is all they need to shoot for, and that they don't need to try any harder or think any more about their coasters - even if the theming surrounding them is fantasy. That has become a glass ceiling, one which 95% of people here have been bumping their heads up against for the last few years, like a pack of sheep running into a stone wall. Every so often someone dares to look beyond realism and build a layout that has some greater vision in mind, that doesn't let Walter Bolliger tell it what it should and shouldn't do and yet is still rideable and fucking awesome. Everyone here swoons over said layout and then goes back to building bad spinoffs of fucking Dueling Dragons and Nitro as if what happened was just an anomaly. No one takes a hint that being more imaginative with coaster layouts than real life tells you to be might not be such a bad idea, and might in fact lead to more people being able to create awesome custom layouts. Even as they look to the far corners of the world and their imagination for theming inspiration, people are fucking lazy with the imagination of coasters.

And the reverse: Only building archy will not be impressive enough to make one a decent parkmaker nowadays.
Yep, like Turtle said, you go for the package now...

That's completely false, according to this site's general opinion of what defines "decent" parkmaking abilities. Looking at, I don't know, how about...JKay, DarkJanus, John, Kevin, Titan, Foozy after his Istanbul screens, and perhaps yourself - just to name a few - people are just fine with no coasters, shitty coasters, or coasters so unevolved in comparison to the surrounding theming that they might as well not be there.

We pat ourselves on the back for supposedly "appreciating both good coasters and good theming at once" all the time, but it's horseshit, and anyone with some common sense will recognize that. An OK but not great coaster layout with absolutely no imaginative or original qualities surrounded by awesome, creative, imaginative theming is something that people drool over everyday. Isole Calabria, which people just voted the best park ever made, had one imaginative layout in the water coaster, two steelies that were nice but had absolutely nothing which hadn't been seen before, and an awful wooden coaster.
It has been demonstrated by Fright Nights and Caesus and Rift Valley and Epica and others that greater and more imaginative things are possible with coasters than nice little conformist B&M cookie-cutter imitations, but 95% of people are too lazy to try and go there with the imagination.

So please stop trying to shoot down people like JDP and RaPiPo and Woofenskid. People who do that just prove that they are part of the problem.

woofenskid Offline

Will people please stop blindly backing the fucking status quo and take a look around?
Coaster building standards at this site have gone nowhere in 5 years, while theming standards have gone from the Stone Age to microscopic detail. The layouts that people are mindlessly plopping down in their parks nowadays are on average worse than those being made in 2002. If people appreciated the "whole package" so much, which means valuing coasters somewhere near as much as theming, THAT WOULDN'T HAVE FUCKING HAPPENED.

Why did it happen? People have gotten complacent that a pretty good semi-imitation of some real-life coasters does just fine and is all they need to shoot for, and that they don't need to try any harder or think any more about their coasters - even if the theming surrounding them is fantasy. That has become a glass ceiling, one which 95% of people here have been bumping their heads up against for the last few years, like a pack of sheep running into a stone wall. Every so often someone dares to look beyond realism and build a layout that has some greater vision in mind, that doesn't let Walter Bolliger tell it what it should and shouldn't do and yet is still rideable and fucking awesome. Everyone here swoons over said layout and then goes back to building bad spinoffs of Dueling Dragons and Nitro as if what happened was just an anomaly. No one takes a fucking hint that being more imaginative with coaster layouts than real life tells you to be might not be such a bad idea, and might in fact lead to more people being able to create awesome custom layouts. People are fucking lazy with the imagination of coasters.

And the reverse: Only building archy will not be impressive enough to make one a decent parkmaker nowadays.
That's completely false, according to this site's general opinion of what defines "decent" parkmaking abilities. Looking at, I don't know, how about...JKay, DarkJanus, John, Kevin, Titan, Foozy after his Istanbul screens, and perhaps yourself - just to name a few - people are just fine with no coasters, shitty coasters, or coasters so unevolved in comparison to the surrounding theming that they might as well not be there.

We pat ourselves on the back for supposedly "appreciating both good coasters and good theming at once" all the time, but it's horseshit, and anyone with some common sense will recognize that. An OK but not great coaster layout with absolutely no imaginative or original qualities surrounded by awesome, creative, imaginative theming is something that people drool over everyday. Isole Calabria, which people just voted the best park ever made, had one imaginative layout in the water coaster, two steelies that were nice but had absolutely nothing which hadn't been seen before, and an awful wooden coaster.
It has been demonstrated by Fright Nights and Caesus and Rift Valley and Epica and others that greater and more imaginative things are possible with coasters than nice little conformist B&M cookie-cutter imitations, but 95% of people are too lazy to try and go there with the imagination.

So please stop trying to shoot down people like JDP and RaPiPo and Woofenskid. People who do that just prove that they are part of the problem.

You just became my favorite person. Ever.

Being "narrowminded" means focussing rigidly on just one known -safe to yourself- aspect of something/whatever without having the flexibility/daring to go beyond it, so fuck (in your words) yourself, for it's not people that can see things in a broader perspective that are "narrow-minded" but it's the the ones like you that only can obviously just see one aspect of this game that are "narrow-minded"......
So shut up, you, Woofy....

I also said, in my post, that architecture was an important element. Not reading/interpreting the entire post could also be taken for narrow mindedness. Just my opinion though, no offense.

Edited by Panic, 02 July 2007 - 03:02 AM.

JDP Offline

^^
agreed. I think, that if the round is called "the dueling coaster round" that it should be about the coasters first and foremost, not the theming.

^Thanks for agreeing with me. And dont mind turtle. He just dont like that the truth hurts.

As for you panic. I am very happy you said that. Maybe some one with respect at this site such as your self, could maybe nail it into peoples heads.
-JDP

disneylhand Offline

I find it stupid that people are arguing over something that ultimately comes down to people's opinions. I personally do not like outlandish rides like Fright Nights and would take a well-done realistic coaster any day. But I wouldn't go and attack Phatage for throwing together a layout that would never be built in real life. Although, to me, that's how it's perceived, I'm not stupid enough to assume that that's the case solely because I don't like it; because I know that it I would most likely be wrong. And no, Panic, the way I see it, it is not a matter of laziness if someone chooses to build a coaster in the style that they prefer.

I also said, in my post, that architecture was an important element. Not reading/interpreting the entire post could also be taken for narrow mindedness. Just my opinion though, no offense.

This is not an opinion. And read her post again, just to refresh your memory on what narrow-mindedness really is.

As for you panic. I am very happy you said that. Maybe some one with respect at this site such as your self, could maybe nail it into peoples heads.

So mixing a handfull of "fucks" with a load of complaints while doing little more than yelling at people is now a recipe for gaining respect and better park(maker)s?

-disneylhand

Edited by disneylhand, 01 July 2007 - 11:10 PM.

JDP Offline

^Yeah I would think so.

See you later.
-JDP

woofenskid Offline

This is not an opinion. And read her post again, just to refresh your memory on what narrow-mindedness really is.

Opinion: anything that can be said, but not proven.

Fact: anything that can be said, whether it be true/false that can be proven right or wrong

Findings: anything that woofenskid says that speaks of how he feels about things are either his personal opinions or misguided(sometimes not so misguided)facts. mostly, however his opinions. THIS, however, IS an opinion, because it is what I personally feel and what my perception of a certain word/usage of a word is.

opinion EX: President Bush is an upstanding, intelligent mean, and a good leader.

Example of a correct fact: Clouds are made up of water vapors, stemming from condensation.

Example of a blatantly false fact: Horses shit diamonds.

Suggestion:ponder this, if you will.

Turtle Offline

Panic, I agree with you as much as the next guy, and I admire what you've said and have been trying to say for the past few years. I as much as anyone hate the fact that in my mind, only one guy has built a piece of RCT2 work that even comes close to the standard set by my favorite LL parks, and a lot of that comes down to the fact that no-one considers the rides they make any more, they just go right ahead and build them. Look at what WME and RRP (to name just two) were doing with the game before RCT2, and it's clear that we haven't really gone anywhere. This annoys me too, but to be honest, I can't be bothered to try and change the status quo, so hey. I'm just going to get on with life.

If you want examples, the parks that spring to mind for me are SWA, Troy's Ancient Resort, Kiri's IOA, Lost Era Resort, Auroras Bay, Busch Gardens Lichfield, and probably a few more Fatha and Nate parks. I think your post was generalising the situation too much - take a look at the original arguement; I was merely saying that coaster design alone will not cut it. Never has, never will. I wasn't saying that we should concentrate merely on themeing, or any less on coaster design - indeed I think far more thought must be put into the way a coaster fits into a park, as shown above.

woofenskid Offline

Fatha, Watkins Woods spotlight topic...

All I've looked at tonight are the coasters, because really its the first and foremost important thing in regards to parkmaking.

Fatha's latest park, his scenario, is at least partially testament to breaking coaster rules. Ryu? One of a kind. He dares to stretch the rules, open minds up to new ideas.. and gets welcomed with open arms, so to speak, because he has a reputation around here. But, when people like myself, or jpd, say hey! what's up with this, we get flamed mercilessly by the masses, excluding some (i.e., panic) Why is this? becuase in order to establish yourself here, you HAVE to be a clone, you have to build according to the so called "ne style". and why, I ask... Well, I have answered this myself. as with may different aspects of life, we, as a community, are afraid of change.. that is, unless it's brought about by someone we know and trust, such as fatha. If, say, Rapipo came off with some whimsical looking non b&m designs layout, and Kumba/corky liked it, and it made design, would anyone else like it? You would probably get a whole lot of the standard "it's not realistic enough, why is that support so unrealistic, a coaster like that wouldn't have that element..." Which, IMO, is also a reason for the mixed reactions on DRC. That park was FAR OUT, compared to most of the other stuff around here, but it drew a whole lot of criticism, because it wasn't realistic.. and realistic has become the "scene emo" of roller coaster tycoon... over rated and really, really depressing.

deanosrs Offline

I think this whole discussion is very interesting... when it comes to the style in which you build you should just prioritise wherever the fuck you want, but when it comes to judging it's very different - what should Kumba, as a judge, prioritise?

In the past, people at the site had quite an accurate impression of what iris liked. So when people refer to the classic "NE style", what they're really referring to I think is the type of parks that iris liked the most. Because those were the ones he gave spotlight.

It's a very similar discussion to what you see in judging any kind of subjective art form - take dance - obviously you can observe technique, and rate that, same way you could in RCT. But when it comes to two different styles of dance, which one to prefer is a similar discussion to saying, should a park with great coasters and shit themeing be better or worse than the opposite?

I didn't actually have anything else to say, just thought I'd woffle for a bit cos I'm at work.

Cocoa Offline

I'm getting a lot of show in this argument. :biggrin:

1. Why is this in the PT3 topic? Create your own topic.
2. I really don't give a crap about this argument, it's boiled down to people arguing over what they said earlier in the topic and everyone's pretty much saying the same thing.
3. Thank you Panic and Woofenskid.

Turtle Offline

Fatha, Watkins Woods spotlight topic...

Fatha's latest park, his scenario, is at least partially testament to breaking coaster rules. Ryu? One of a kind. He dares to stretch the rules, open minds up to new ideas.. and gets welcomed with open arms, so to speak, because he has a reputation around here. But, when people like myself, or jpd, say hey! what's up with this, we get flamed mercilessly by the masses, excluding some (i.e., panic) Why is this? becuase in order to establish yourself here, you HAVE to be a clone, you have to build according to the so called "ne style". and why, I ask... Well, I have answered this myself. as with may different aspects of life, we, as a community, are afraid of change.. that is, unless it's brought about by someone we know and trust, such as fatha. If, say, Rapipo came off with some whimsical looking non b&m designs layout, and Kumba/corky liked it, and it made design, would anyone else like it? You would probably get a whole lot of the standard "it's not realistic enough, why is that support so unrealistic, a coaster like that wouldn't have that element..." Which, IMO, is also a reason for the mixed reactions on DRC. That park was FAR OUT, compared to most of the other stuff around here, but it drew a whole lot of criticism, because it wasn't realistic.. and realistic has become the "scene emo" of roller coaster tycoon... over rated and really, really depressing.

Point being, you, nor any other of the people you named in this reply, has the ability to build anything that would "break the rules" and still be good. Fatha does it, but if you notice, he's still theming the coasters really well.

Also, Mala blows your argument completely out of the window. He turns up, creates something amazing, that doesn't adhere to the "NE style", and yet people still love it (for the most part). It's not because it's different, I personally think that irrespective of who makes something, or what style it is, if it's good enough, people will like it.

Panic Offline

I'm sorry for ranting guys. I overlooked the most important point in doing so. It isn't laziness per se that has caused coaster standards to stagnate; it's more like people having unfavorable priorities and being distracted by theming and supporting and the like. The point at which NE's coaster standards stopped improving coincides pretty neatly with the rise of RCT2 and its ridiculous array of theming options, so I'm willing to postulate that they're connected. Theming used to frame coasters, back about five years ago. Nowadays it's pretty obvious that in most cases coasters frame theming. The custom scenery and theming options are the hot spot and the coasters are just there to play host to it - people just slap down some half-assed layout so that they can put awesome theming all around it. I mean, if you look at most RCT2 parks today the coasters are clearly not the center of attention. The theming is. That unfavorable sense of priorities then leads into it being OK to slap down some quasi-realistic layout and think no more about the coaster than that, because hey - with great theming, who's going to look that hard, right? It explains why slow, weak, rough, and brutal spots have been on the rise again in recent NE coasters, and it also explains why hacked coasters have declined hugely in RCT2. People being distracted by custom scenery and theming and supporting options pretty much explains everything here.

JDP Offline

I'm getting a lot of show in this argument.
1. Why is this in the PT3 topic? Create your own topic.
2. I really don't give a crap about this argument, it's boiled down to people arguing over what they said earlier in the topic and everyone's pretty much saying the same thing.
3. Thank you Panic and Woofenskid.

^Hey, I pretty much started the debate. For once I started something that was actually worth talking about instead of me acting like an asshole.

But seriously, I really think that everyone is going to have their own opinions about this... Just like Fantasy Vs Realism. But to get my actually thought, just read my first post on this page.
-JDP

Edited by JDP, 02 July 2007 - 11:10 AM.

Cocoa Offline

That fantasy vs. realism discussion is bull shit. They're all arguing about the same thing. They're all saying that it doesn't matter how you build, as long as its good but then they disagree with themselves and say that there is no fantasy or realism, its a mix of both. Then the cycle starts all over again.

EDIT: JDP, you're right. You did start this argument.

Edited by RaPiPo, 02 July 2007 - 01:17 PM.

Splash-0 Offline

So who is in for this round? I just finished mine a couple of hours ago. Hope to see a nice round again

deanosrs Offline

Yep RaPiPo, someone get a medal to JDP.

Kumba Offline

Ok...

Well I have the following peoples entires for the bonus round:

- Zodiac
- RaPiPo
- Splash-0

Thats it? Well, expect them posted this evening when I get back from class.